Ronin (or "anattached samurai"):
I never wanted to be an autograph seeker; I'd rather develop personal relationship/friendship with people. But I have in the past simply went up and asked for pictures or autograph: Said Auita and Carl Lewis. Definitely, Zatopek would have been one of them! I don't give a damn about this "compare times" crap. What a man! And, for what I've heard, very receptive as well. The late Ron Daws' wife, Mary, went and chatted with Dana years ago (because Emil was Ron's hero). She just went up and banged the door basically and had a great time visiting her.
To stear the topic at least slightly to the original quiestion; I had some e-mail exchange with some coaches and athletes lately. My thought in general is that Americans just LOVE repeats. As Arthur always said, if there's an event such as 20X400m, Americans would sweap the medals. Funny to put it this way, coming from Japanese about Americans, but Americans are such a hard-working bunch. They literally work their butt off till they puke on the track. But is it really the way to go? I've heard so many stories, and seen it myself, that impressive training log does not necessarily translate to impressive performance. When some world-beating athlete demonstrates impressive workout, that is simply because he/she is capable of performing such workout well within him-/herself. And for that, they must have done, if not born with it, fair amount of base work.
I think one of great contributions Dr. Daniels made is that he's made final stage of peaking training accessible to the mass. With his charts and explicit training plan, we can figure out intensity and effort of workout without having a coach watching you (in general). Lydiard's training is certainly much more toward "train by how you feel" approach. But Lydiard's contribution is more apparent on his base-building approach. Easy jogging of long mileage alone will not going to make you a great athlete but without it you will not make it there either. With that, I think Lydiard's contribution is bridging the gap between ordinary individuals and the physically talented, the naturally gifted, or the geographically advantaged (altitude).
I know this is sort of coming to an end of the thread especially people might be losing interest when it becomes more or less chatting board among specific individuals (Kim S, HRE and myself???). But I hope we can keep this going a bit longer to stir up some "thinking" among runners and coaches of today.
Ronin (or "anattached samurai"):
Yes, Coach sent me a copy. I have not read it yet but can't wait to sit down and spend some time "studying" it. I hope people, especially young coaches and runners, don't shy away from it just because coach Squires don't talk some scientific terms like LT or AT or whatever. His system is very straight forward and traditional...and has been proven to work!
On a separate note, I found something interesting: I found Henry Rono’s (almost) day-to-day training leading up to his 13:12 5000m performance in 1981.
June 30: 5000m 13:57
July 7: 5000m 15:48 (last place)
July 9: 5000m 14:15 (en route of 10000m drop-out)
July 11: 5000m 13:40
July 16: 1500m 3:50
July 18: 5x1000m (2:49, 2:40, 2:48, 2:47, 2:40)
July 19: 12x400m (68~65)
July 20: 24x200m (31.2~28.8)
July 21: 4x400m (55~59)
July 22: 6x800m (2:08~2:05)
July 23: 12x400m (63.2~61.5 w/ the last one 58.5)
July 24: 5x1000m (2:44, 2:42, 2:43, 2:41, 2:40)
July 25: No training because of rain
July 26: 17x400m (65~63 w/ the last one in 58)
July 27: 24x400m (last one in 57.7)
July 29: 3000m 2nd in 7:55
July 31: 2 mile 8th in 8:44
Aug 3: 3000m 1st in 7:58
Aug 8: 5000m 5th in 13:26
Aug 11: 3000m 1st in 7:50
Aug 19: 5000m 4th 13:27
Aug 21: 3000m 5th in 7:51
Aug 23: 5000m 2nd in 13:23
Aug 26: 5000m 1st in 13:12
The point is, however, what Rono did BEFORE he got to the point where he piled up this type of training. Rono said, “We run twice a day; 15km in the morning, 15km in the evening. We continue this for 4 months… We take anywhere from 1:15 to 1:30 to run these 15km. This has to be continued everyday for 4 months.” Then after 4 months of this type of training, he would “include interval training on Tuesday and Thursday (with a 15km run in the morning). These are usually 12x400m with 2 minutes recovery jog.” The type of stressful training is only possible AFTER developing solid aerobic base with “30km everyday for 4 months” even for someone super-human as Henry Rono.
I've put this on other threads. But I'll vouch for the fact that Henry did his distance runs VERY SLOWLY, not just for a 13:12 5km guy, but for anyone. He and I were staying in the same place one night and he went out for his Sunday long run about 15 minutes before I left for mine. I overtook him about 75 minutes later. A mutual friend refused to do those 15km runs with Henry because they were so slow.
I just sent out some of the training patterns of the girls I was coaching at Hitachi in Japan to some of my colleagues along with Dick Brown who is working on developing sellected young ladies on a long-term plan. It's been a while to revisit the training log and schedule ideas that we used to work with. I was surprised myself actually with the fact there is hardly any interval/repetition type training at all but tons and tons of easy jog--every day, twice a day. Every morning we joged 7k in about 40~45 minutes. Evening varies but again lots of easy 40 minutes up to 2:30 hours. This particular young lady I coached, she was 19 at the time with 57-sec 400m speed. She was a sprinter in high school and we developed her into 4:28 1500m runner in 2 years (first 1500 in 4:51). There's one thought that came to my mind...with this type of training, most widely advocated by Lydiard, the times will COME, not be SQWEEZED out. Human body can adopt quite a bit of stress and you can bring your body to run fairly hard. For example, I can start some intervals today and will improve my mile time by 15~20 seconds rather quickly (though I know I'd end up injured in 3 months!) but what about next year? This is what Lydiard meant when he said your "icing on the cake (anaerobic capacity) will be built on the top of your aerobic development and your aerobic capacity can be developed year after year with the marathon-type conditioning."
Are you the Tom Derderian who was a bearded marathoner in the early 70s?
David Colin Bedford, another bearded runner.
Are you the Tom Derderian who was a bearded marathoner in the early 70s?
David Colin Bedford, another bearded runner.
Half of it turned gray so I looked like an old skunk so I shaved.
What color is yours?
There wouldn't be a chance you could share those schedules you referred to with another coach of young women, is there? You'e already sharing an incredible amount of information on various threads so I understand if you can't. Just curious.
I sent you the Hitachi training separately. Check out Seko's training at Hodgie-san's website as well.
I'd have to say my favorite picture of you, besides the one I used for the Lydiard Boston clinic (regardless of what Hodgie-san called you...) is the photo of you finishing the 1981 Boston marathon. Or was I thinking about someone else who's finishing beside you???
I have finally found out Kuts 100m speed. He was very fast down to 11.0 , source V.Kutnetsov/Gorozanin/Sakayev.
I know wonder more about his PB in 800 and 1500.
But most I wonder what kind of hill did he use like talked about earlier and also what else information is about his training details in this book you talk about and also other information.
According to the source that I have, Kuts' 1500m PR was 3:52.
Correct me if I'm wrong (someone who has other sources) but Kuts seems to have done fair amount of hill training (mainly in a form of fartlek). It says (How They Train) that some Australian runners saw a film of Kuts training for 1956 Olympic Games and he was "running up a 5k long hill in his training suits at brisk pace." You COULD say it's like Kenyan runners running uphill of, what, 12 miles? Of course, I don't necessarily buy "the film"... He could have run up that particular hill only once in his life per film maker's request...who knows? Heard a story of Snell running up on the top of the mountain per photographer's request and in the magazine was a description of how Snell runs up and down the mountain all the time...?
As far as I'm concerned, Kuts running on the ball of his feet was application of hill training (resistance work) except he's not stretching his Achilles as effectively as would have on the uphill.
Well I Kuts had a 11.0 100m he was as fast as Peter Snell Gebrselassie Moorcroft Komen and others all he needed was to ad hard endurance, but with that solid body of 72 kg 1.72 high it was not so easy maybe his aerbic capacaty was not so enormous after all. With such an enormous background from speed todays endurance runners can do 26.30 and 12.40 2min and 1min faster than Kuts. Maybe this hard intervals was not so good for developing endurance after all but then again he did not have an aerobic body.
His 1500-5000-1000m range is
Kuts 62sec +65.0 68.5
Haile 56,5 +60,5 63.0
Haile + 6.5 sec 1500m vs 10000m pr lap
Kuts + 6.5 sec 1500m vs 10000m pr lap
It was probaly his large body that slowed him down in aeorobic distances 400m and up becuase his 1500-10000m range is top but not so fast to start with, just 3.52 1500m PB so aerobic level is RELATIVE good 1500-10000m (aerobic) But not so good in 100/400m-10000m range becuase of an not so good body for longdistance. But with such a starting point of 11.0 in 100m he can do 13.35 very good in 1950s
That is a very interesting comparison. Kuts' body type was certainly not ideal for distance running but I would not necessarily say totally disadvantage. Snell had relatively huge frame and so did Deek. I always thought Ron Clarke is a big bulky sort of guy--my image of Clarke is that he always wore large shorts (you can put two Frank Shorters in at once!) and his legs were actually filling them up! Jtupper who actually tested on Ron Clarke can tap in and tell us his first-hand impression...
There has been several threads on "record comparison". People say things like Lasse Viren is no good because he's a minute behind African runners of today... You've got to remember, whole dymanics of the sport is quite a bit different. The spike shoes of the 50s and 60s are quite heavy and hard and rough. I can easily see today's track and high tech spike shoes, you can run more than a second, probably a couple of seconds, per lap faster today. And the tactics. They just didn't have such a systematic string of rabitting of today back then. No physiological f^%$g way Kuts would have run a record time the way he ran the rest of the field into the ground in Melbourne!
Japanese can be, as much a dominant force in marathoning today as they are, quite backward thinking. I remember even in the late 80s and early 90s, they liked to see their runners go out really fast (14:30 to 14:50) and see how much they could hang on. They always got so excited when so-and-so (or should I say, Soh and Soh?) were running 10 seconds faster than the world record split in the first 5K! It doesn't matter. Even paced running is the best way to run and today's record attempt is always first 5K somewhere around 15:00 or 15:10 with 4 or 5 rabits hobbering around.
I would agree that Kuts and other previous runners' method of intervals was probably not physiologically ideal for developing aerobic base but I was actually surprised, after checking into Kuts' training, how much long running he was doing. I think the area someone like Lydiard contributed most is peaking. He put training together so you know when you'll be most race-fit. Someone like Kuts seems to have had good solid mixture of speed and endurance in his training but perhaps they (speed and endurance) were counteracting because they didn't quite understand how to mix them correctly.
Nobby, I don't know whether Arthur talked about it with you. But in 1965 the Russians sent out a team here (NZ) that had a few Distance runners and the Press "sisters". However, I always believed that the main aim of the team (as well as good will ) was to look at how Arthur went about Coaching his athletes. The Coach of that group was Korobkov (spelling !!).
Because that tour was at the "height" of our track season I wonder if "Peaking" was an aspect they wanted to check on.
I am not sure what he got from the exercise because as you know Arthurs "Boys" were all over Auckland and held down everday jobs and had families.
Where have you been hiding? No, I never talked to Arthur specifically about Russians visiting NZ but I remember him always talking about Eastern block coaches and athletes (Russians and East Germans) always so very keen on learning new techniques and programs. Although I might doubt that the reason why they visited NZ in their (your) height of track season could possibly because they just wanted to get away from their (Russian's) winter!? I sure would have felt that way living in Minnesota!
Seriously, it's rather interesting because, according to my source (Japanese running books), one of very few Russian successful middle distance runners is Yevgenity Arzhanov who got nipped by Dave Wottle in 800m in 1972 Munich Olympic Games. He had 10.5 sec. 100m speed and trained 90 minutes constantly during the winter to the point where he successfully completed a marathon in 1969 (like Snell?). I won't connect those two together too quickly but if Russians visited NZ in 1965 to study the Lydiard method, I wouldn't be surprised Arzhanov was, based on these stories, quite a bit influenced. Of course I can hear some people already saying, hey, look at Wottle who beat Arzhanov--he trained more or less intervals diet (I don't know, did he?).
Another piece of stories is Zoya Ivanova who ran 2:27 marathon in the mid-80s. Her training was (1) aerobic phase where she ran 160km to 200km; then (2) strength phase where she would perform repetition of 1.5km hill at a slow forward speed as well as some hill bounding; then finally (3) specific endurance where she would perform series of repetition such as repeat 400m or 1000m or 2 to 5km. Sounds very familier...
Now this is not Russians but Lydiard spent qutie a bit of time in Europe at one time and influenced quite a few countries there. One of the success stories is Anders Garderud of Sweden who won the gold medal in 1976 Olympic steeplechase. He would do 12 weeks of aerobic base A where he ran 170km a week followed by aerobic base B where he would increase the distance up to 200km a week. Then he would do 8 weeks of hill bounding before he would move on to the track and spend next 8 weeks with such workouts as 20X200 or 10X400; or--get this--10X100m "downhill" fast striding. Of course, his steeplechase record was "only" 8:08...
I know that Arthur was always fond of the East Germans because they embraced his system and then did all their physiological tests that showed why his system was physiologically sound. The Russins could have learned all they wanted about anyhting Arthur did just by asking him. I wonder if they knew that?
Arthur was always very harsh on, well, Eastern thinking (I prefer not to use a "C" word) though...
It was characteristic of Lydiard that he would tell you bluntly (very) exactly how he feels but he never pushes his idea upon anybody. It's basically "take it or leave it". He was one of the most open individuals I ever met.
I was just recently revisiting Knut Kvalheim's threads. It is one of the most informative threads. The success of his runner, Susanne, has been quite amazing and her training pattern is very interesting--thanks to openness of coach Knalheim as well. If you haven't checked it out yet, you should.
Just in case, when I said, "you should check it out", I didn't necessarily mean "you=HRE". That was just a general term.