Did you do longer tempos than 20 mins? If you did how long/ how fast?
How these fartlek lokked like?
and you and the 1.46/7 guys what could run in the 400 and int the 1500/ mile?
thanks
Did you do longer tempos than 20 mins? If you did how long/ how fast?
How these fartlek lokked like?
and you and the 1.46/7 guys what could run in the 400 and int the 1500/ mile?
thanks
I believe in ends to middle training. I'm also not a fan of long runs for someone with decent speed.
I think you need to get your 400 time down to 48.0. 1.47 would be hitting the ceiling with 49.5 speed.
Start
Running Session 1
Speed development. Start with plyos, push/pull (sleds or rope), then 60-80s. Have a good sprint coach really work on your form. 4 weeks of 80s, 4 weeks of 100s, 4 weeks of 120s, 4 weeks of 150s (in 17.1), then 4 weeks of 200s (in 23.5-24.0), 4 weeks of of 250s (30.5), and 4 weeks of 300s (37.0) with 10-12 min recoveries. That's a 28-week progression. I am assuming your 200 level out of blocks would be around 23.0, so you really need to get this down.
Running Session 2
800 speed, eg 10-12 x 200s. or 30 mins of diagonals. Neither kills you in the early phases. These get longer over the year, to 300s, 400s, 500s all at 800 speed.
Running Session 3
Billat training - eg 15 x 1/1 (ie 1 min hard 1 min easy, hard at 2km pace, easy at 60% of that). Alternatively 7 x 2/2, or 5 x 3/3. Total 30 mins. Can do it on a treadmill to lessen impact, and treadmill can be useful if you live somewhere cold too. A couple of months of this, then work down to 1500 training.
Running Session 4
8 x 1km at about 5km pace, 90sec recovery (replace long run)
Gym - one hard day a week, one easier session, 3-4 days after session 4, so the CNS sessions are well separated. hard one do cleans (make sure you do them well), box jumps.
A tempo run a week and an easy run. That's 7. Make sure session 4 follows the easy run day, and I'd say do session 1 after the gym day. This sort of rotation.
Day 1 - Running session 1
Day 2 - Running session 3
Day 3 - Tempo run
Day 4 - Gym
Day 5 - Running session 4
Day 6 - Running session 2
Day 7 - Easy run
Wow, this sched seems like it s from Horwill, 5days intensity with a gym, how someone would not overtrain with this? Adaptation simply can t occour.
Although i like the 400pace workouts, i believe that they re much more productive than the gyms or plyos.
I didnt know about that longer billats, former sub4miler said (viking quest from Lr) that he could run 3.57 off a version of thesse ,2,5hard at 5k ish pace and 3min float. I m doin this and its very productive, athough its slower than vo2max pace.
Little update i ve just ran a easy road race 3,4k in 3flat pace, i think am capable right now 8.30is for the 3k off just fartleks.
Could you show me more infos about these longer billats?
What kind of fartleks did you use ?
60 min 1 on/1 off ?
Fartlek is actually as good as interval training, just depends on intensity.
We could get same effect by running hills, saying I don't even use interval training.
6-9*(2,5 hard- 3 easy) hard at 5k effort, last one harder and easy at easy run pace or faster
3*6*30sec hill jog down and 6 min jog between sets
30min tempo by feel
Other days 35min jogs
About 15-22 mins of VO2max workout
30 min at LT
Hill session is like speed-power for your legs. IMHO that's a very nice plan for 3-5 k.
No need to run 5 x 1 k at track with 3 mins of recovery for doing VO2max workout, same to LT and speed.
So, no wonder you are in a good shape.
Same did a lot of runners from 70-80 with "No interval training".
canova talked about aerobic power for almost every event in a couple events, I remember when he was talking about the 800 he mentioned the two main ways for 800m runners to increase aerobic power.
1200,800,600,400 ladder workout with 2-3 min rest
8km run at 90-100%
He has also talked about doing short sprints on easy days like 12x80, 12x100 during base season.
*thread
To quote coach d speaking about this
"What Renato outlined in the old monster thread, and which we use in our program (D1) for 800 specialists, emphasizes Aerobic Power:
2 sessions per week of long intervals. Sessions like 6X1000 or 16-12-8-6-4 breakdowns
1 long run of ~60 minutes
The rest of the time is in the pool or recovery runs of 30-45 min, not necessarily at a slow pace.
Close to indoor racing start sprints of 100m or 200m
Krummenacker used almost exactly the same plan to win World Indoors gold over Kipketer, which is the last medal of any kind won my a US athlete at 800.
Renato specifically mentioned that the long run was important for maintining anaerobic threshold (i.e., lactate clearance), and that the Italians had better results with aerobic power training for 800 than with highly anaerobic training (lactate tolerance)."
since your 400 and 1500 are similar I think you should look into rodals training (46, 1:42, 3:37 when he was in 1:44 shape)
ill link the thread and quote the program.
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1187288
Training
The man who coached Vebjorn from he was nothing (just a talent) into 800m Olympic gold is Kjell Arve Husby He is a fat man who used to be sprinter on local level. He is probably the most important reason why Vebjorn succeeded togheter with Frank Brissach (also secondary coach Marius Bakken 13.06 5000m). They built a team called team Rodal they did almost all on their own with no help from Norwegian federation. Team Rodal said local store was more important for them then the Norwegian federation. Thru all Norway (and World) team Rodal was known as some funny, happy and orginal people. Almost evry time Vebjørn was on television he had to tell a joke or funny story. This is the botom line in their work: have fun and have a lot of energy. Vebjørn says he always train with high levels of energy. Offcorse he works very hard, but he maintained energy. To have variation and fun in training Rodal could do things like running up a step hill in the winter and glide down on a saucer as the break and then repeat it many times, he said 95% hard work and 5% fun. About doing training in winter is also another important point because Rodal do almost all his training at home in Norway even when it is snow and ice. Some times he goes to warmer places in winter but not for altitude. He run indoor inside a mountain (350m long) or a cinema and he also have a very fast tread mile at home in basement.
I said he have a lot of fun but he also say that he like others have to do the same though workouts. Vebjørn also talk a lot about motivation and being though and tolerate pain. He is also very much in love with nature and go hunting a lot and do not like people manipulating with nature like when he and ski star Dælie had a fight over using altitude tent something he consierd unethical. Big fight and Dælie crying,
About the though work . (All goes in systems and sycles I am not sure 100% how it goes but an overwiew with some details I can give)
Rodal`s training is very alround it is meant to train all the different aspects which can make you a sub 1.40/800m runner. That was Rodals ultimate goal: be the first to run 800m under 100 sec (1.40)
This is how the main structure look like in ex 1994 with not so much seasonal variation, but focus on all abilities all year to have continuity from year to year
Monday
1)30 min jog and flexibility
2)Aerobic intervals distances from 200 to 2000 meters
Thursday
1)Easy long run
2)Springy (see below)
Wednesday
1)Jog drills and stretch
2)Intervals distances from 100 to 1000 metres
Thirsday
1)Easy long run
2)Weights (see below)
Friday
1)Top speed (sprints 60-150m)
Saturday
1)1h 30 min Aerobic longrun (after 1 january it become fast logrun or interval)
Sunday
1)Endurance Strength stomach, back, hip, back side (after 1 jan it becomes reoccupation and flexibility)
Strength training
From 1st October to 1st January
2 days of weight training a week (one circle and one weights)
Weights:
Knee bend 12-18 x 50k (max)
Lunge 15-20 x 30k (max)
Rising 8-12 x 30k (max)
Hamstring 20-40 x Easy load apparatuses
Hips 20-25 x Easy load apparatuses
Buttocks hip backside (Hip get most load) 20-25 x 20-25k
Circle training: Hard traditional
1st January to 15th Mai
Weights once a week
More specific exercises,
More fast, longer break
Max effort every 3rd week. Half knee bends down to 90• and max up (Growing stronger in time 4-5 (series) x3-5 (reps) 120-160kg ) This is so though that next days sprint work be some easier every 3rd week
15th Mai to 15th September
Once every 9th day
Specific exercises
Maintenance
Lighter weights
Important notes
See that strength is day before sprint this to get right tension in muscles so sprint training can be max fast. But he never do the type max strength before sprint because that increases strain danger.
Springy training
From 1st October to 1st January
30 min basketball warm up
Endurance running drills/ tecninques 6-8x80m
Sprint, steps, limp, 2 legged jumps in stairs 6 floors
Step series 3-5 80m
Some workouts much drill some much stairs variation evry second weekend
Every second workouts sit up and back
1st January to 15th Mai
4-6 x 100m drill drills
5-6 x 100m Spprunglauf
2-3 x 60-80m hink
2 x 100m Indian jumps (chages of foot)
1-2 x 60m sprint sprunglauf
15th Mai to 15th September
Jog drill and sprint with gradual speed increase
3-4 x 60m sprunglauf
2-3 x 40 m Easy limp on toes
2 x 60 m long indian jumps
2 x 60m sprintsprunglauf fast
Notes
Vebjørn do 280 jumps in an easy week upto 550 in a hard week
Rodal can jump 15.30 in still standing 5 step jump
Because he always do strength and springy training all year round he do not have do start on zero again but can develop into new levels every year He do not loose his capacity it always grow a bit stronger. (Atleast that was the theory)
The reason Why team Rodal put so much focus on strength and springy is following:
Make better tecnique through better balance, avoid rotasions and make better joint sense
Strength because you need more power to drive step forward
Better ankle strength to give som exstra “snert†(more explosive ankles)
Rodal is the type of runner that is truly a specialist, being world class in only one event international class, 400 and 800 just national. This is I personally mean is because his tremendous specific speed and strength endurance from a session like 3x600m. Rodal himself tell that speed is the secret for his success, he was a modest 100m runner but compted the distance ofen because he belived to train also your weakness. The Rodal model is inspired from Britain training in the 80s. So Vebjorn tells us that whithout a strong 200m speed you can not become an international runner. At youn age he trained 18-19 year much of the focus was strength and springy not endurance from young age witch is popular today.
You see he trains like a 400m runner with much jumping, drill exercises, sprint and weigths. Then he do a moderate aerobe volume using 1500m sessions and segments of fast aerob run like 10 minutes to build aerob capacity. But belive me it was not a massive aerob capacity that made him fast, never in his life can he do under 8min in 3000m or better than 3.37 in 1500m. His massive strength is the phenomenal speed endurance which binds this together with very hard sessions, throwing up. Before Atalanta OG 96 he ran speed endurance sessions of 400s in 48 seconds.
Example week from basic training from November-March
Monday
1) 30min aerobe run
2) long intervals aerob ex 10x400+2x200
Thursday
1)30min aerobe run
2)Springy (like described earlier)
Wednesday
1) 30min aerobe run
2) Anarobic quality ex 3x600m, rest 10-12min
Thirsday
1) Cirkel strength (traditional exercices)
2) Long intervals aerob like Monday
Friday
1) Rest
2) Anaaerob sprint 3x150m + 3x120m + 3x100m, rest 3-5min
Saturday
1) Strength work (like described earlier)
2) Rest
Sunday
1) Long run 45-60min in spring an 2houres in autumn.
2) Rest
Notes
The morning run of 30min is done like this 10 fast 10 slow 10 fast.
You see it is very much quality year round evry element is always present
Also when talking about 800/1500 runner's silas kiplagat must be mentioned, (1:44,3:27). Canova gives examples of his workouts here.
I give you some example of Silas' workouts during the last period.
SPECIFIC SPEED ENDURANCE :
example 1 : 7 x 600m increasing speed and opening recovery : 1'33" (rec. 1') - 1'31" (1'30") - 1'29" (2') - 1'27" (3') - 1'25" (4') - 1'23" (6') - 1'21" (in the real training, the first was already 1'29", and the 6th 1'24", but the last was 1'19"8).
example 2 : 5 sets of 3 x 400m (recovery about 3' jogging about every set) : 3 x 400 in 62" (rec. 20") - 3 x 400 in 60" (rec. 40") - 3 x 400 in 58" (rec. 1') - 3 x 400 in 56" (rec. 2') - 3 x 400 in 54" (rec. 3') - After these sets, rest between 8' and 10', and 1 x 500m in 1'05"
SPECIFIC AEROBIC POWER / LACTIC RESISTANCE :
example 1 : 8 km in 23'30" in progression (first km in 3'05", last km in 2'44")
example 2 : 1200 / 1000 / 800 / 600m (recovery 6') in 2'54" (58" per lap) - 2'24" - 1'53" - 1'22"
SPECIFIC TRAINING FOR FINAL SPRINT :
3 x 1200m (recovery 8' / 10') in about 3' / 3'03".
Silas has to run every 1200m with 6 x 150m under 19" (normally between 18"5 and 19") reducing his speed for 50m before the next 150m. When he was able to understand what to do during the 50m following every 150m (not braking, but "floating"), the time for these 50m was Always between 10" and 12", and this gives the final time of 3' / 3'03".
Silas put these type of workouts (which I give him) inside his personal plan, deciding when he's ready for doing them, also looking at the competition plan, frequently changed because the goals are many and he needs, sometims, to change his choices looking at the situation at the moment.
I think its wrong to compare upcoming white runners to these africans, they could run inside 30min 10 from just they childhood active running enviroment, basicly you can throw whatever to them and they improve and adapt.
In my situation these really specific sessions wont help me to get my 1500 down (to help my 800), because what s im lacking is a bigger base, not some crazy long race pace reps, i ve tried the, but god wont help me if im not fit enough.
From 1.55 down to 1.49 my 400m pr doesnt changed much, but in 1;55shape i could do 5*600 with 5min rest in 1,40s, when i ran sub 1,50 i could do 8of them in two sets with 90sec rest.
Actually i could do really intense seassion and i ve ran 1,56 , ran 4*200 with 1 min averaging 24 sec, but sure i could t break 9 in the 3k.
In my situatin is the key to at least stay in 50 sec quarter ability, and in the same time move my 5-3k time down to low 8mins or 14.10-20s, than do some real specific 800 min workouts for couple of weeks.
Rodal is not African lmao :)
Having a good base is not even needed depending on your definition of base, Rodals program had almost no season variation, and he is Norwegian. Not African, which according to you automatically means they ran from a young age and are blessed from god. Finding the type of runner you are and using a program that has proven success would be key. Improving your 400 time will help you more than anything else if you can dip under 3:50
Yes of course i know that He wasnt african.
In base i mean that 95%of training is not the fancy superworkouts but the ones that made you able to do them, and in the Canova exaples i can see tha huge volumenous race pace intervals, but if you only do the you will be shot and wont improve, the tempos moderate paced intervals, sprints that made you able to do the specific workouts.
A friend of mine did the following sced and ran 1.46 indoors. Also 3,41 outdoors with similar 49low speed
1; 6-10*400 200jog 70-64 with 80s jog
2; 5-10*800 400jog 2.30-20 last one 2:10low with 2,5min jog
3;9-10 miles 4;5-5 miles tempo in the middle 6min pace,last 1,5 miles 5min pace
Other days 5miles 7min pace and a day off 3mile jog
Two weeks of two workouts(6-5-3 8min/ 200s 70sec 32-23 progressing and a longrun of 10 miles 6,30-7pace and first race solo 1.48 negativ split
Wow!Great thread!
you are using an exception to prove the rule and I know why. 800m training is hard, ridicously hard. You can see that through any of the schedules I have shared. Your friend could have ran faster, Periodization is not of absolute importance. Specific endurance is by far the most important out of anything, only doing specific endurance at intervals longer than 400m a couple months a year is does not help with optimal progression.
For the 800m what is most important
1) specific speed, (4x500,3x600,5x400.....)
2) 400m speed,
3) aerobic power and lactic threshold
4) Strength endurance- basically plyos and anaerobic circuit work or sprints with short rest (6x60 w 30" rest)
These things must be included year round!!!
You are not right, no world champion or consistent world class runner didn't have things like this year round besides maybe Symonds and cram, both of who ran sub 1:43 once, and had sub 47 ability.
And also another thing, doing specific work with at correct speeds with correct recovery's year round will no make your legs shot all week. That simply means your running far to fast with to little rest to many times a week. There is a reason brother colm has almost no seasonal variation and has produced so many runners under 144
Things that Brother colm does year round
Plyos/ Specific endurance
Diagonals- very good for LT
800m pace work
20-25 min runs at 95 percent (aerobic power)
intense fartlek's with long intervals
And tons and tons of strides and hills plus lots of stetching
What short interval session would you recommend? (In the build up)
Short intervals in high volumes, short rec at 90%race speed eg. 200s or 300s at 29-30sec paces with 60-90s rec in sets.
Or 100%race pace with adequate rec ex. 300s at 40-1sec with around 3min rec.
Bump