Partridge wrote:
Rojo wrote he was 42nd of 48. Then three exotic athletes were entered and they cut the field to 45. That doesn't make sense as he still would be qualified as #45 of 45.
The article linked in the previous post says he was #41 of 48 and eight such extra athletes were added. That would explain why he is out.
Can someone clarify these contradicting informations?
So, he got the numbers wrong.
It's not like numbers were important in making his point.
Les wrote:
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
How will it build the sport to have a guy from a country that doesn't care about the sport running 10 seconds off the pace in a 2 lap race? Watching their guy get crushed in a sport they don't care about is suddenly going to grow the sport in that country? Or more likely no one will tune in and it will have a net-zero effect and a 1:45 guy will be kept out for the reason of inserting a 1:55 guy.
How are you going to grow the sport in a country if you never see any of your athletes compete on the world stage? For some countries it's a point of pride just to be there. You are expressing the point of view of countries where it's routine to be at the World Championships. Not all countries are so fortunate.
Ethiopian ex-pats, they'll get you to the championships quickly.
I saw this thread title and thought "I bet Rojo started it". Boom I was correct.
IAAF needs to follow it's rules. So in English case I hope they are at least filling to 48.
Rule needs to be changed so that in events that are not limited by lanes (ie the 1500) non qualified athletes are just extra athletes. Throwing in a few 3:55 guys in the back of the field is fine, but don't let them take away from the field size of qualified athletes.
Clearly in the 100, they want it to work that way so it should be same with 800 (just make guy share a lane with someone) and 1500 and up.
Simple fix.
***
Rojo just needs to word his complaint differently.
Being bumped from Worlds for a 3:55 or 1:55 athlete sucks and is unnecessary. So the rule needs to be changed. I assume Rojo would agree with that. If athlete gets screwed by bad rule (this case) or not applying the rule correctly (Pan Ams) the athlete still gets screwed. We don't want athlete to get screwed.
Rules need to be a) clearly thought out b) written correctly c) enforced.
I agreed with you until I remembered wrote:
[quote]kettlepot wrote:
You know what Ivy League professors say consistency: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do."
Who are we to judge big minds or great souls???
That was Emerson. There's no indication in the rules how many wild cards will be granted in any given event, so this is nothing you can plan for. English and Willis are being jobbed. English is being harmed by two bad decisions, the second being the unreasoning limitation of the field to 45 instead of 48.
Willis isn’t being jobbed. He knew the qualification rules.
The way I see it is it's very much like the Boston acceptance when it's open to everyone. "Willi" or Willis is obviously a great runner and fresh off his 5th Ave mile win, but he didn't get a BQ-5 (or at all you could argue).
Let's say he ran a 3:04:01 for his age category (3:05?) but then in the final days a bunch of 3:08:59 guys show up (for a 3:10 cutoff). They make it in and Boston cuts it off at BQ-1min.
Shitara ought to get a spot in the marathon rather than some slow American.
wejo wrote:
I saw this thread title and thought "I bet Rojo started it". Boom I was correct.
IAAF needs to follow it's rules. So in English case I hope they are at least filling to 48.
Rule needs to be changed so that in events that are not limited by lanes (ie the 1500) non qualified athletes are just extra athletes. Throwing in a few 3:55 guys in the back of the field is fine, but don't let them take away from the field size of qualified athletes.
Clearly in the 100, they want it to work that way so it should be same with 800 (just make guy share a lane with someone) and 1500 and up.
Simple fix.
***
Rojo just needs to word his complaint differently.
Being bumped from Worlds for a 3:55 or 1:55 athlete sucks and is unnecessary. So the rule needs to be changed. I assume Rojo would agree with that. If athlete gets screwed by bad rule (this case) or not applying the rule correctly (Pan Ams) the athlete still gets screwed. We don't want athlete to get screwed.
Rules need to be a) clearly thought out b) written correctly c) enforced.
Thanks for the good wording and the sensible response.
Any added athletes outside of qualified athletes should not impact qualified athletes.
Especially since events chosen by these countries are completely arbitrary.
All of these guys ran faster than Willis and are not going.
Athletes who achieved the entry standard (not a top three performance or not selected)
Charlie Da’Vall Grice GBR3:30.62 Monaco (MON) 12.07.2019 nS
Yomif Kejelcha ETH3:31.25+ Boston MA (USA) 03.03.2019 nS
Bethwel Birgen KEN3:31.45 Paris (FRA) 24.08.2019 nS
Vincent Kibet KEN3:33.21 Doha (QAT) 03.05.2019 nS
Charles Simotwo KEN3:33.25 Monaco (MON) 12.07.2019 nS
Josh Thompson USA3:35.01 Berlin (GER) 01.09.2019 nS
Henry Wynne USA3:35.14 Seattle WA (USA) 15.06.2019 nS
Johnny Gregorek USA3:35.21+ Boston MA (USA) 03.03.2019 nS
Brannon Kidder USA3:35.27 Seattle WA (USA) 15.06.2019 nS
Brimin Kiprotich KEN3:35.32 Monaco (MON) 12.07.2019 nS
Cornelius Tuwei KEN3:35.34 Berlin (GER) 01.09.2019 nS
Sam Prakel USA3:35.66+ Boston MA (USA) 03.03.2019 nS
James West GBR3:35.74 Seattle WA (USA) 15.06.2019 nS
Hicham Akankam MAR3:35.85 Rabat (MAR) 16.06.2019 nS
Izaic Yorks USA3:36.52 Seattle WA (USA)
What does it mean to "impact qualified athletes"? There will be potentially eight 800m runners from countries who didn't qualify any athletes for the meet. Presumably they'll be spread among the heats, likely off the back quickly. Personally I think this is a bad idea that does little to "grow the sport" in these countries.
Star wrote:
Thanks for the good wording and the sensible response.
Any added athletes outside of qualified athletes should not impact qualified athletes.
Especially since events chosen by these countries are completely arbitrary.
Bottom line: bit players shouldn't complain. If you're good enough they'll want you included. Rules shmules, they can follow any criteria they want to fill their race and there's nothing anyone here can do about it. Worrying about who makes up the tail of the field for this kind of event is misplaced focus and wasted time and energy.
Ciro wrote:
Rojo - I rarely agree with you but I think you are 100% correct with this one.
Rojo - I rarely agree with you and I think you are 100% a moron.
Others more worthy wrote:
All of these guys ran faster than Willis and are not going.
Athletes who achieved the entry standard (not a top three performance or not selected)
Charlie Da’Vall Grice GBR3:30.62 Monaco (MON) 12.07.2019 nS
Yomif Kejelcha ETH3:31.25+ Boston MA (USA) 03.03.2019 nS
Bethwel Birgen KEN3:31.45 Paris (FRA) 24.08.2019 nS
Vincent Kibet KEN3:33.21 Doha (QAT) 03.05.2019 nS
Charles Simotwo KEN3:33.25 Monaco (MON) 12.07.2019 nS
Josh Thompson USA3:35.01 Berlin (GER) 01.09.2019 nS
Henry Wynne USA3:35.14 Seattle WA (USA) 15.06.2019 nS
Johnny Gregorek USA3:35.21+ Boston MA (USA) 03.03.2019 nS
Brannon Kidder USA3:35.27 Seattle WA (USA) 15.06.2019 nS
Brimin Kiprotich KEN3:35.32 Monaco (MON) 12.07.2019 nS
Cornelius Tuwei KEN3:35.34 Berlin (GER) 01.09.2019 nS
Sam Prakel USA3:35.66+ Boston MA (USA) 03.03.2019 nS
James West GBR3:35.74 Seattle WA (USA) 15.06.2019 nS
Hicham Akankam MAR3:35.85 Rabat (MAR) 16.06.2019 nS
Izaic Yorks USA3:36.52 Seattle WA (USA)
https://www.tilastopaja.com/roadtodoha/index.php
Yes but presumably all the above athletes countries teams are already full - doubt NZ's is.,
The men’s 5k target participant total is 42, although 43 are reflected. This includes 2 refugee athletes and 3 best country athletes.
The 4 athletes who were bumped:
Top 4 of not qualified athletes
Amanal Petros GER13:22.52 Heusden (BEL) 20.07.2019
Hideyuki Tanaka JPN13:22.72 Heusden (BEL) 20.07.2019
Jimmy Gressier FRA13:23.04 Carquefou (FRA) 21.06.2019
Mike Foppen NED13:25.89 Heusden (BEL) 20.07.2019
If we start making exceptions for Willis, we’ll need to make exceptions for a whole bunch of others as well.
Gosh darn it people, sometimes we just need to accept that life isn’t always fair.
Yes, people dedicate their lives to the sport, including those who happen to come from countries with many other very talented athletes. Why should Willis expect an invitation over the many, many athlete who ran fast than him but come from countries who already have three or four athletes in the event? Why not give the spot to someone who actually has the best chance of taking advantage of the invitation?
rojo wrote:
Mark English of Ireland is #42 on the list. He will not be going to Worlds. The IAAF took three people from countries that have no one else in the meet (think 1:55 800 types) so so he was still down at #45 but they decided to just keep it at 45 instead of filling the field to 48.
English is in good form as he ran 1:45 twice in August including picking up a win at the DL meet in Birmingham (the 800 was a non DL event there).
The weird thing about the IAAF entry instructions it says next to the 100 (not including the unqualified athletes) . The way I would read that is that one would think that would apply to all of the events. Regardless, you think they'd fill the fields to their target numbers.
This pisses me off. People dedicate their lives to the sport. Fans can say it doesn't matter but it does. The athletes need to be respected.
The IAAF is clearly applying their rules inconsistently. In the decathlon they only invited 23 athletes instead of the original 24. Czech Jan Dolezal was the 24th, planned to go, and was shocked to not receive an invitation. Similar to others he did not reach the standard of 8200 points, but he was over 8100 twice this season. Others were invited based on last years results, though they were 100-130 points behind Dolezal this season.
Er... wrote:
What does it mean to "impact qualified athletes"? There will be potentially eight 800m runners from countries who didn't qualify any athletes for the meet. Presumably they'll be spread among the heats, likely off the back quickly. Personally I think this is a bad idea that does little to "grow the sport" in these countries.
Star wrote:
Thanks for the good wording and the sensible response.
Any added athletes outside of qualified athletes should not impact qualified athletes.
Especially since events chosen by these countries are completely arbitrary.
I think you agreed with what I wrote.
If the added runners fall of the back quickly then they would not affect the qualified athletes. They won't be in the way.
The concept has been around forever.
You call it a World Championships, so it looks more worldly if more countries have a representative.
There are a couple of reasons this has not gotten attention in the past:
For one, there was never a ranking system. There was a straight time standard. Hit the standard and you're in. Run too slow and you're out. No chance for a gifted athlete to bump anyone.
And second, in this case it bumped a known and liked athlete which draws attention to it.
Les wrote:
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
How will it build the sport to have a guy from a country that doesn't care about the sport running 10 seconds off the pace in a 2 lap race? Watching their guy get crushed in a sport they don't care about is suddenly going to grow the sport in that country? Or more likely no one will tune in and it will have a net-zero effect and a 1:45 guy will be kept out for the reason of inserting a 1:55 guy.
How are you going to grow the sport in a country if you never see any of your athletes compete on the world stage? For some countries it's a point of pride just to be there. You are expressing the point of view of countries where it's routine to be at the World Championships. Not all countries are so fortunate.
And not all countries send all qualified athletes (NZ doesn't). NZ bases selection on "reasonable expectancy of making final". Hell, NZ even requires "proof of current fitness" sometimes.
I read the rules. Did anyone see the part about the top 15 at World Cross qualifying for the 10,000?
This seems like a pretty good policy on who to invite - a good balance between making sure the best in the world are there, and giving the 208 member nations someone to cheer...way better than the old days of 'up to 3' per country...
rojo wrote:
This afternoon I got word that Irishman Mark English won't be going to worlds in a case similar to Nick Willis.
The IAAF said they would be targeting to take 48 athletes in the 800. That makes sense as that way they could run 6 heats of 8.
Mark English of Ireland is #42 on the list. He will not be going to Worlds. The IAAF took three people from countries that have no one else in the meet (think 1:55 800 types) so so he was still down at #45 but they decided to just keep it at 45 instead of filling the field to 48.
English is in good form as he ran 1:45 twice in August including picking up a win at the DL meet in Birmingham (the 800 was a non DL event there).
The weird thing about the IAAF entry instructions it says next to the 100 (not including the unqualified athletes) . The way I would read that is that one would think that would apply to all of the events. Regardless, you think they'd fill the fields to their target numbers.
This pisses me off. People dedicate their lives to the sport. Fans can say it doesn't matter but it does. The athletes need to be respected.
My goodness!
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