Lonah Chemtai Salpeter of Israel runs 30:05 in Tilburg 10K

Try to understand that what I wrote is not the training of Lonah, but an example of progression, respecting a right training phylosophy. Dan Salpeter has a more complex training, and there are many different type of session, but always respecting these principles :

A) You never have to lose what already you have (so, no very long periods of "basic resistance" based on volume only, without good level of intensity)

B) You never have, for long periods, a "simmetric" program, because when the intensity of training becomes higher, we have to extend the recovery time

C) It's important to have competitions, that are important part of training, but at high level, otherwise the control of the current situation can't be effective.

And don't forget Dan is not only the coach, but also the husband : this means he can / must to organize training and private life in the best way for having top results, and this means the ability to have flexibility in training, following a clear methodological line.

I don't know if Dan wants to share again the real training of Lonah, how already did in the past : looking at the fact that for the most part of people here the interest is in doping only (without knowing anything), frankly to explain something technical is a big waste of time.

Can you give me a few examples of female athletes running 35 10km and their training is jogging 30min two times a week?

Thank you for cleaning up the sport Renato and guaranteeing that your athletes never cheat. Your athletes know that cheating does not help. I wonder why some cheat when it does not help.

I don't have many examples of athletes for long time at amateur level, than in short time moving to international results. But I remember that I was the coach of a Maroccan women living in Italy, Rakiya Maraoui, born in 1967, who arrived Italy when 19, going to stay in Perugia. There she started running, and when 20 her PB in 10000m was 37'54". When 21 (1988) 36'56". When 22 (1989) 36'04". When 23 (1990) 35'33". Her training was 5 days per week, with long and easy run only, together with a group of Maroccan running for a local Club.

In 1991 she changed life, finding a job in Torino, and came with my group of women, which included Maria Curatolo (3rd in WCh 15 km 1987 and 8th in Olympic Marathon in Seoul '88), Maura Viceconte (at that time 1h13' in HM), and two years later, Ornella Ferrara (who won bronze medal in Marathon in WCh 1995 in Sweden). So, she started to train seriously, and in 1995 ran Marathon (Berlin) in 2:28:17, while in 2000m ran the French record (she became French for marriage in 1996) of 10000m in 31'56".

Jokes about doping aside, it is nice to hear stories of people who seem to have plateaued at an amateur level and then after years become really successful. I'm unhappy with the way I've run for the past few years. I self train, and train relatively hard, but I believe I can do much much better. These stories are inspirational for people who are struggling with disappointing results, but still believe they have potential. I like to think that I can eventually get much better results then I am now. I guess training alone without an guidance(I make up my training sessions as I go along) is not helping, but with a good training group and coaching, things can suddenly be very different. When you don't understand how to train yourself, doping seems like the easiest way to explain improvements. I thought I could train myself, but clearly I just need coaching and a group of people to run with.

Renato Canova wrote:

I think never these people can be educated to know WHAT IS TRAINING, its effects and the performances everybody can achieve, if interested, using in proper way right methodologies.

Totally true.

I know a girl who for years didn't even break 40 min for 10k, and she was training 5 or 6 times a week, doing her hills, fartleks, track sessions, long run, etc.

One day, in her mid-30s, she decided to look for guidance. She found a good coach (good athlete too) and started dedicating herself to training. That was her priority in life - she had a full-time job, no kids, running became her priority.

I can't remember, two or three years later, she ran a 2:39 marathon. Again, someone who couldn't break 40 min for 10k for years.

It is possible to achieve great things through sheer dedication, and a bit of luck with injuries.

Renato Canova wrote:

Do you know Lonah and Dan had a baby in the meantime ? Do you know she ran only twice per week till when they married, and the longest "jog" was 30' ? Do you know she had to stop breast-feeding in order to run Olympics, and for that reason she felt a lot of pain during the race and had to stop ?

So, don't do the same mistake of Subway. You can run every year the same race, but when are not trained of course you run very much slower than when in good training (and she already ran, before the start of the collaboration between me and Dan, 32'43", well different from 35'01").

You have to look what there is BEHIND any performance, something the most part of people don't know, if not involved in this type of athletics full time.

Didn't Faith Kipyegon just give birth?

Allyson Felix?

The East Africans have destroyed distance running as a sport. The lead packs of nearly all distance races consist almost entirely of East Africans, many of them carpetbaggers representing other countries they moved to just a few years prior. The lion's share of East Africans are juiced to the gills, including this 35 minute 10K Israeli phenom.

Yes, the East Africans are enormously talented. Yes, the East Africans train hard. Yes, the East Africans would still win more than half the distance medals without the rampant cheating. But they've turned the sport into a sham. No amount of 24/7/365 social conditioning will make me believe otherwise.

This. If this hypothetical guy existed, everyone would immediately accuse him of doping. But some people don’t even question Salpeter’s improvement. Just saying it’s “better training”, or whatever.[/quote]

Correction, "proper training" ?

Does anyone think that if you can improve so drastically with doping then every male from 30 min 10k and below is a doper.

Seriously if it improved you by 5 minutes, we. Would see more ridiculous times.

Can we not adopt the innocent until proven guilty approach?

Subway Surfers wrote:

You're being a comedian, right? So a female gets to age 28/29, after years of running and suddenly she discovers she is "talented." Now I'm not talking about being talented at darts or snooker, she is now one of a handful of the fittest females in the history of the human race. Either you are incredibly naive or part of the problem. Further proof the sport is in serious trouble.

+1

Subway Surfers wrote:

Randy MoSS wrote:

Come on man.

Where theres smoke theres fire.

Canova has been an apologist for dopers for years, stop the "she decided to get serious" after years of being a 35-36 min. 10k runner.

I call BS.

Exactly, if you created an algorithm to work out who was doping using all the traditional red flags, Salpeter would have every alarm bell ringing. Translating this into "male" this is really an example of a guy that loves athletics and turns up on Saturday and runs the 100m in 11.1. Then suddenly one day he decides, "stuff this I'm going on the sauce and getting good like the rest of them" and instantly drops to 10.2, then 10.0 the next season and now 9.8. It's just farcical in plain sight.

+1

Yes, even a hobby jogger would struggle to make that kind of improvement after a certain number of years simply by getting a bit more serious.

She was regularly, every year, posting 35 minute 10K times in Tel Aviv (presumably at the national championships?). Then suddenly it's a minute faster and the next year one of the world's best with WR potential at 31.

The coaching system in Israel must be really bad if she had that much potential for so long and it took her marrying a top coach to bring it out.

Another red flag, to be honest, is her coach/husband claiming that she is 'genetically superior' (for being Ethiopian). We've seen that before.

It's possible that she is clean and she's done this through hard work late in her career, but Canova does himself a disservice by getting so angry at any suspicion of her - which is surely only fair given the state of distance running and doping today.

Coevett wrote:

The coaching system in Israel must be really bad if she had that much potential for so long and it took her marrying a top coach to bring it out.

Another red flag, to be honest, is her coach/husband claiming that she is 'genetically superior' (for being Ethiopian). We've seen that before.

This ^ she has had the same coach since 2011/2012, yet only two years ago did she make dramatic improvements. So we can rule out improved coaching. There must be some really good substances going around the black market right now.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Coevett wrote:

The coaching system in Israel must be really bad if she had that much potential for so long and it took her marrying a top coach to bring it out.

Another red flag, to be honest, is her coach/husband claiming that she is 'genetically superior' (for being Ethiopian). We've seen that before.

This ^ she has had the same coach since 2011/2012, yet only two years ago did she make dramatic improvements. So we can rule out improved coaching. There must be some really good substances going around the black market right now.

Salpeter is running the worlds, but any other plans this year?

It’s crazy that you believe you can write a short sentence dismissing all of Canova’s legacy.

And being funny once in a while is not an excuse for failing to provide articulated thoughts.

Canova has trained many big names in the sport like Shaheen and Florence Kiplagat (the latter with a long and successful career before and after pregnancy), and also a few ones who indeed emerged very rapidly: Nicholas Kemboi’s story is my favorite (I know it is pre-ABP era), but Erick Kiptanui and Josphat Boit (the Kenyan, not the American) were still new in the sport when they appeared internationally in 2018, and Moen has also astonished a few since his breakthrough in 2017.

Renato Canova has been very open about whom he has trained. He does not select athletes based on pre-existing running ability or PB. So far, his leading athletes have never failed a test while training with him. We also know about numerous athletes he has advised over the years, some of them with spectacular improvements. They are not all of African descent, and they don’t all spend most of the year in remote locations. Let’s take 2 German examples:

- Anna Hahner is a mid 33-runner on 10K (there are plenty of them in the US) but became a 2:26-marathon runner (there are much less US women achieving this) while getting advice from Canova.

- Arne Gabius (a self-coached physician) ran a NR of 2:08 in the marathon as a 34-year old after failing at breaking 13’10 for 5000 in a long track career.

The training logs of Salpeter and Moen before their best races are now available on these pages in a degree of detail and accuracy that you don’t have for any other runner of their level.

I agree with Subway and the others that being suspicious is normal given all what we already know, but failing to understand what Canova takes time to explain repeatedly and with much detail while not having to is both pretentious and ignorant. Someone (but not Canova) should correct Subway when he does false claims "she has had the same coach since 2011/2012, yet only two years ago did she make dramatic improvements. So we can rule out improved coaching" while Dan Salpeter has provided enough information to prove the improved coaching. Nobody does it (so I feel I have to try at least once) and it is a shame. The LRC can do better.

I think Canova is way too kind when he goes to the arena to debate with people who are neither stating their credentials nor open to a constructive discussion. He knows he is getting old and wants to transmit some of his knowledge, unfortunately choses the wrong audience here.

@Renato: It is time to concentrate on people you have a chance to help and convince. Debating with Coevett, Subway or LoneStarXC does not lead you anywhere. Keep your energy for the ones who are worth your time and dedication. (If you need help to reach more people, tell it! Some may be willing to help you too.) Thanks!

I don't mean to hijack the thread but just to let people here know Bekele is running Berlin in a few weeks.

Similar time improvement to Bolt!

Great post @trane. Anyway I would be interested if there is an explanation for this:

PrZ wrote:

Interesting how she runs this fast on the roads and dominates, yet has only run 14:59 (14th at the London DL, 4 seconds slower than the first half of this race) and 31:15 (2nd at the night of 10k pbs, 7 seconds behind Steph Twell) on the track this season. Maybe mentally she’s bad with running a lot of laps? Kind of a weird contrast in performances.

Can you provide an answer Renato? Was it more of a mental problem or was there a period this year were she wasn't in top shape like now or when she ran 2:19?