Why do so many high schoolers not run much faster in college?

joantodd1 wrote:

I'm not just talking about your fast high school guys (4:15ish, etc) that end up getting injured and not doing a ton. I'm even talking about your 4:40 milers or 17 min XC guys that go to a DIII or DII school.

I see it so much. Maybe injuries and other priorities play a role, but I see it a ton. I tend to look up younger kids in my area who went on to college...most are doing what they did at the end of their HS careers.

Has anyone else noticed this?

I think all of the guys I ran with in college or high school teammates who went D1 and stuck ran much faster in college. A huge percentage flames out and several of my high school teammates did not make it past years 1 or 2. But those who stuck were generally running much faster than high school even in the sophomore years. Running faster as a freshman is a mixed bag but after than transition everyone got faster.

The only thing I can consider close to an exception is a girl on my high school team who ran 4:38 in the 1600 as a high school senior and only marginaly improved in 1500 in college over her high school time. But she greatly improved in longer distances finishing top ten at NCAA XC and podium at NCAA outdoors in the 5000. Plus comparing female phenoms to your standard talented high school guy is a poor comparison.

For those who do not improve:

Burnout

Lack of motivation

Bad coaching

Wrong coaching

Injuries

Peaking early

Academics

Social life

Just rattling off reasons i’ve Seen and heard

joantodd1 wrote:

I'm not just talking about your fast high school guys (4:15ish, etc) that end up getting injured and not doing a ton. I'm even talking about your 4:40 milers or 17 min XC guys that go to a DIII or DII school.

I see it so much. Maybe injuries and other priorities play a role, but I see it a ton. I tend to look up younger kids in my area who went on to college...most are doing what they did at the end of their HS careers.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Law of diminishing returns.

Alan

Idiot alert wrote:

LR posters typically post their feelings instead of fact based analyses. The fastest high schooler this year ran 4:03 outdoor while 70 guys ran that fast indoor in college. That's an insane amount of improvement. So for every guy that you can find who gets slower in college, I can find 50 who improved.

That is not an indication of an improvement because the datasets are unique. You'd need to compare the same individuals, and establish the delta 12 months later. Gross normalization doesn't show anything

Not at all wrote:

I’ve not seen that. I’ve actually seen that many seem to split their high school 5k PB pace for 8k.

Literally me hahah split my faster than my 5k pr a few times

I didn't get faster cause I only ran two years got hurt mid season my freshman year... And the years were two years apart.

I agree with what the OP. Most of the kids I have sent to college who are middle of the road talent-wise don’t improve .

Three reasons :

1. There is no real metric to measure how good a college track is. There are no dual meets, college invitationals are non-scoring. It is like a basketball team where all games are non-scoring. As a result there are some really bad college coaches .

2. How the middle of the road kids perform has no bearing on a coach‘s evaluation. A college coach can ruin 25 kids but put 2 in the nationals and he is getting rehired. If you can recruit the thoroughbreds you can get away with being a bad coach.

3. There is almost no opportunity for middle of the road kids to improve . Most seasons have 3-4 invitationals, then the League Championships and Regionals. If the middle of the road athlete doesn’t make the standard in those 4 races his season is done .

Compare any year. The numbers are similar. Take the senior class from 4 years ago and you will find a handful at 4:03 but 4 years later, 30 guys from that class are running that fast. Randomly pick 100 guys from 2015 and you will find that 90% improved in college.

The American high school system is fantastic. Lots of races, good coaches who stay with same program for many years.

American college system doesn't have enough meets and high turnover rate for coaches ---- so there is less pride when producing the product.

I ran for three years at a solid D1 program and never broke my HS PRs. There were a lot of reasons:

- College coach had a totally different training philosophy

- As a mid-distance runner, I didn't adapt well to higher mileage

- Freshman year injuries after being mostly injury free in HS

- Ducking indoor track. Racing 9 out of 12 months is idiotic.

- In the summers we were 100% on our own and I didn't adjust well to that

- After cruising in HS and doing fine, college academics were a little overwhelming

- Some level of depression or chronic fatigue

- Eventually I lost motivation and became more interested in surfing and skiing

I regret not sticking it out for four years and giving it 100%.

old coach...................... wrote:

Because too many lazy college coaches make every body do what their best guys do or what their best guy did. Not enough individualization because of laziness which ruins the guys who aren't ready for it.

You sound like someone who couldnt hack it. Train like the best if you want to be the best. Dont cater to walk ons.

Many high school runners run 70-80 mpw. I ran 30-40. Walked on at an average d1 school in the 1980s. Half the freshmen runners were not on the team by junior year. Most were top runners at good high school programs and could not take running jv races. I took a while to get used to the increased mileage and academic work but improved greatly over my last 2 years. Almost quit because only ran 7 track races in first 2 years in college because coach would not put me in races. Those who improved most ran fewer miles in high school and made running and academics priorities. Very easy to give up in college if you are not improving.

3k. 5k. 1500

High school. 916. 1602. 419

College freshman 909

Sophomore. 854

Junior. 835

Senior. 816. 1429. 353

Blame the college coach's!

i was heavily involved in high level HS track and field in Houston, Texas.

there is absolutely no good reason at all why a 21 or 22 year old version of an athlete should not improve times they were turning out at 17-18-19 except one reason:

1. College competition tests for drugs

The Houston HS track scene had and has had a prolific amount of PED use esp in the sprints and middle distances. Even mediocre kids would use PEDs (EPO esp along with SARMs) in season.

I speak first hand to this. If you think about it getting fast times in HS can result in a 200k scholarship - there is every financial incentive to use drugs to achieve this goal. Something many parents will agree with but not openly.

In college, that EPO you were buying over the internet while competing in HS will show up in a drug test and can result in a revocation of a scholarship.

If you look at the times in HS track and field - they are unreal and yet kids train with far less intensity now they 20 years ago.

The dark secret is PEDs, PEDs, PEDs.

If you run the mile in 4:40 but only run 17 min 5 k, something is wrong. You should be just under 16.

22 guys broke 16 minutes in Wisconsin last year. 154 guys broke 4:40. One idiot on Letsrun thought the times were equivalent.

I improved my 2 mile pace to 8K pace.

Pretty much this... there are a TON of factors... any one of these things could be the reason:

1. College coach sucks.

2. Kid looses interest... Burnt... hits the sauce harder than the miles, stops good sleeping habits... toast.

3. Like what was said above: If the kid is doing 70+ mpw as a senior in HS with hard workouts... how much more can they improve? What will it take to improve in college? 100mpw? 130mpw? A lot of the top kids in HS are already training like collegiate athletes so their improvement (if there is any) is minimal.

4. Injured constantly, can’t stay healthy... quits due to frustration.

5. Running their easy days too hard/ hitting the hard days at paces that are too fast for their ability.

6. Culture of the team/ school... XC and TF aren’t the priority so the programs sits in a zombie state and the kids pick up on it and mail it in.

There’s definitely more reasons but that’s a good list...

389 broke 3:52 in the 1500m (roughly 4:10 mile) outdoors this year and

224 broke 4:09 in the mile indoors (33 broke 4).

303 broke 14:30 in the 5000m (79 broke 14).

Obviously, even excluding foreigners, there is a lot of improvement in D1 college.

In D3, only 20 broke 3:52, so the lack of competition in practice and/or talent and coaching are limiting the development of D3 runners, but 180 broke 4, which converts to about 4:18 mile, so that is a pretty solid figure, considering that most sub 4:20 milers in high school are going D1. 500 broke 4:07, about a 4:25-26 mile, so D3 has at least a lot of guys ahead of the proverbial high school 4:30 miler.

In the 5000m, 21 D3 athletes broke 14:30 (1 at 13:51 broke 14), 145 broke 15, pretty solid, 420 or so ran 5:00 mile pace or better for the 5000m (15:32.3 or so). I would bet that many D3 athletes would improve more in D1, because the best guys on a D3 team are not typically going to have sub 14:30 guys to train with.

Colleges drug test for PEDs, high schools dont. This is why HS stars slow down in College.