I looked over some slow motion side view of the race and he definitely was running more upright than most of his competitors especially on the last lap when they were kicking. He did injure his foot on a rock earlier in the year and I doubt he'd be looking back if he didn't know that Ben True was somewhere back there and had the standard. He was just making sure no one snuck in. In a different scenario he'd just kick as hard as he could and live with the results.
Jgt11 wrote:
I agree, look at world-class runners and you see no matter how hard they're running they're always relaxed, Drew seems like he's brute force running, straining against his body.
He just doesn't complete his drive. He is pulling his legs off the ground before he finishes coming up onto his toes. So his hips stay low and his stride is truncated.
He can fix it, but it isn't going to happen on its own. Sometimes a a guy gets too wrapped up in early success and thinks its just a matter of continuing to mature and get stronger. Its not. He's efficient, but not at his most effective.
Is he not 5 or 10 pounds heavier than he was in February?
Disclaimer: I have not done so much as Google a photo of him at indoors, but I don't recall him looking so bulky in the past. I couldn't believe that he could hang with featherweights Chelimo and Lamong for three miles.
Imagine how fast Drew could run if he were treated for a thyroid condition like most of the rest of the field!
Remember John Treacy from Ireland? Lousy form ----- tremendous runner. (2x World XC champion ---- silver medal L.A. Olympic Marathon.)
Older photo. When the last time he looked like this?
crumpet wrote:
Jgt11 wrote:
I agree, look at world-class runners and you see no matter how hard they're running they're always relaxed, Drew seems like he's brute force running, straining against his body.
He just doesn't complete his drive. He is pulling his legs off the ground before he finishes coming up onto his toes. So his hips stay low and his stride is truncated.
He can fix it, but it isn't going to happen on its own. Sometimes a a guy gets too wrapped up in early success and thinks its just a matter of continuing to mature and get stronger. Its not. He's efficient, but not at his most effective.
Agreed, this looks like what's happening. Any specific things to do to remedy this?
I'm selfishly asking to help improve my own stride, albeit at the hobby-jogger level.
Libertarian Centrist wrote:
zxcvxzcv wrote:
Maybe because he does almost all of his training at a bit slower than 10k pace (CV) and so is not really very efficient at 5000m or 1500m pace because he does not practice it enough and for long enough intervals.
Exactly. Tinman elite is stuck in the liberal mindset of taking the easy way out and expecting to have everything handed to them. They need to do actual hard work and be a little more humble.
No, that's completely absurd. This is not about actual hard work or a "liberal mindset." There is no liberal mindset incompatible with hard work anyway. The point is that most coaches will argue that training is highly specific and that you have to do multiple paces to get ready for races. That means not just doing easy runs, 10.5k pace and some 200s or strides at the ends of workouts, but also doing mile and 5k pace intervals. They do what they do to get the highest amount of work at a pace that improves LT or threshold or whatever without breaking the body down. That's relatively low risk, moderate reward but sharpening at least requires race pace even for the Ingebrigtsens.
mooonshot wrote:
He just looks like a Masters runner more than a runner entering his prime.
So, then, moonpie, you're saying that he looks like a Masters runner who is one of the best male distance runners of any age in the US, having won the indoor US national championship 2 mile and having finished 5th in the outdoor 5k. Are you suggesting that we start referring to him as "the old man" instead of "the kid"?
100m repeats starting at 17 seconds with 2 min break cutting down by .5 seconds until cant cut down anymore. Then take a 5 minute break.
Then start at 14 seconds with 2 min break cutting down by .5 seconds until cant cut down anymore. 5 min break. Repeat from 14 seconds until cant anymore.
So, for someone like Hunter:
17
16.5
16
15.5
15
14.5
14
13.5
13
12.5
5 min break
14
13.5
13
12.5
5 min break
14
13.5
13
12.5
Maybe one or two more sets? Until exhaustion.
As an actual workout day? Or the day before a workout, like doing strides?
Gnnfbjgdg wrote:
As an actual workout day? Or the day before a workout, like doing strides?
Workout! Do until exhaustion.
I followed up with Joe Vigil.
He says downhill strides would help with elasticity of stride and get the gait to open and train the muscle patterns eccentrically. Says he did this with all his athletes. Not off a mountain, but a slight downhill grade, less than -5%.
mooonshot wrote:
I followed up with Joe Vigil.
He says downhill strides would help with elasticity of stride and get the gait to open and train the muscle patterns eccentrically. Says he did this with all his athletes. Not off a mountain, but a slight downhill grade, less than -5%.
What about uphill sprints?
Young Man River wrote:
[quote]mooonshot wrote:
He just looks like a Masters runner more than a runner entering his prime.
If he had a stride like “old man” Lagat I would say that’s fine.
zxcvzxvc wrote:
No, that's completely absurd. This is not about actual hard work or a "liberal mindset." There is no liberal mindset incompatible with hard work anyway. The point is that most coaches will argue that training is highly specific and that you have to do multiple paces to get ready for races. That means not just doing easy runs, 10.5k pace and some 200s or strides at the ends of workouts, but also doing mile and 5k pace intervals. They do what they do to get the highest amount of work at a pace that improves LT or threshold or whatever without breaking the body down. That's relatively low risk, moderate reward but sharpening at least requires race pace even for the Ingebrigtsens.
You are wrong about Tinman training. It's not just CV - Drew is covering all paces and intensities as prescribed by Schwartz. He does faster stuff, longer VO2MAX stuff, etc. All of it.
And to you and to the poster who posted the 30x100 progressive workout - doing that over and over does not improve Drew's bad form. Why would his form improve by doing a set of 100m repeats if his form is bad and no one watches him? He would just do them with bad form just like he raced.
The problem is that Tinman is living a few 1000 miles away from Drew and the other Tinman elite guys who train in Boulder. No one is overseeing these guys in workouts. They do exactly what coach Schwartz prescribes them - CV, Tempos, faster stuff, 5k pace, etc. But no one watches their form, tells them how to run correctly, or when to stop a workout early because it's too hard. Drew's form was better in HS when Tinman was able to oversee some workouts, together with the Hunter coaches.
However, this will change very soon. Tinman is moving to Boulder, and will be able to oversee every single workout and add sessions that specifically work on form, just like Salazar does with his athletes. Expect Drew's form to be massively improved at world's.
If Drew increased his stride length on each leg over 190s/min during the usatf meet he would’ve run 13:19.4
Interesting because he is one of the most consistent runners in the U.S. right now...
Tinmen are doing great, the sky is the limit. They are just getting started.
They will be the Bowerman version of Adidas' pro groups. Guys like Drew and Sam will be in the pro group. There will be a development team, without contracts, to up-and-comers like Jeff Thies and Joey Bags.
First thing I notice about his form is the tension in his hands. He should run holding those plastic Easter eggs or ping-pong balls until it feels natural without them. There is a just a ton of tension rooted in his hand carriage, he needs to find a way to relax them.
First thing I noticed about him during USA's was how strained and odd his form looked. It's a problem for sure.
