Running a marathon fast on just long runs, thresholds, and easy miles?

I think this overall approach is okay for doing sort of well in a marathon but you won't get super fast. I mean every elite today does interval work consistently. The X x 1000m is his bread and butter track workout for Kipchoge...what does he know? How can you expect to make your threshold (which is most certainly not your marathon pace, btw) feel easier if you don't run faster than it? Economy will only make you so much faster. I can't think of any reason why you would not do a mixture of interval lengths rotating weekly or every 10 days or so...1000s, 1 mile, 2 mile, 3 mile...whatever you want. 800 or less seems pretty useless. If you are running a 3 hour thon, do you really need to spend much time under 6:00 pace?

AP5000 wrote:

I think this overall approach is okay for doing sort of well in a marathon but you won't get super fast. I mean every elite today does interval work consistently. The X x 1000m is his bread and butter track workout for Kipchoge...what does he know? How can you expect to make your threshold (which is most certainly not your marathon pace, btw) feel easier if you don't run faster than it? Economy will only make you so much faster. I can't think of any reason why you would not do a mixture of interval lengths rotating weekly or every 10 days or so...1000s, 1 mile, 2 mile, 3 mile...whatever you want. 800 or less seems pretty useless. If you are running a 3 hour thon, do you really need to spend much time under 6:00 pace?

Karel Lismont never did any reps over 800m. He did pretty good in the marathon.

Deek bread and butter was 400s, long steady runs and hills. He did pretty good in the marathon.

Vincent Rousseau did pretty good on a steady diet of long steady runs.

Derek Clayton too.

This idea that 10 x 1k or 5 x mile is essential to the marathon is false.

Yeah what does Kipchoge know? You are picking out some specific sub elites (really they are at this point). I am pretty sure if you actually look at their logs they will have plenty of long intervals mixed in and raced 5 and 10ks which are effectively the same thing.

One of the Mammoth Track club's key marathon workouts is 5 x 1 mile at 10k race pace. There's a fairly famous runner in that group. Pretty sure they wouldn't use that workout if it wasn't helpful.

AP5000 wrote:

One of the Mammoth Track club's key marathon workouts is 5 x 1 mile at 10k race pace. There's a fairly famous runner in that group. Pretty sure they wouldn't use that workout if it wasn't helpful.

Have they produced any results better than Clayton ran in the late 60s?

Not sure. But I think Deena Caster was kind of fast (though I admittedly don't know when she moved to Mammoth).

Jordan Hasay says her favorite workout is mile repeats. It's been rumored that she is a good runner. Her key workout is repeat combo of 1k, 1200 and 1 mile...exactly my point.

AP5000 wrote:

Not sure. But I think Deena Caster was kind of fast (though I admittedly don't know when she moved to Mammoth).

Jordan Hasay says her favorite workout is mile repeats. It's been rumored that she is a good runner. Her key workout is repeat combo of 1k, 1200 and 1 mile...exactly my point.

With mammoth, I thought you were going bring up Meb. Meb marathon PB is 2:08:37*. Derek Clayton marathon PB is 2:08:33*. One used intervals. One didn't.

*Men PB is on a downhill course. Clayton is on a disputed course.

Thank you I'm the OP wrote:

Thank you! I've done a 1:38 half and am shooting for 3:25 this year, with hopes of BQing in a few years (3:05 or better). But I know I'm not ready now.

Look into the Maffetone method. You'll see the intensity ranges you need for that marathon, if you did not want to spice it up.

It depends on many external things, but yes, you can go really, really fast on only long runs, m-pace specific runs and easy runs.

However don't forget, use it or loose it ! You might become an aerobic monster and will be able to run even paced runs very fast and varying pace submax efforts too. However, there will be no accelerations and recovery, no final kick, no resistance against head wind or strength for tailwind.

If you stimulate your body enough in Z2/low Z3, you might need only a couple of very fast runs in an entire cycle, but you need them to complete your picture as a runner. In addition, anyways, proper Z3 / Z4 / Z5 training will bring up Z2 and low Z3 paces very effectively .

Marc Allen ran 5:20/mi pace at his AeT 155bpm heart rate as his fittest. That is 2:19 marathon pace. Calculating in speed drift, daily variations and so, he was able to run a marathon any day of the week, sub 2:45 on a 150bpm average heart rate. Even back to back and back and ... That is due to his MAF type AeT targeted training.

However he also mentions that time to time he had sprinkle in speed and intervals and not to forget the 30+ hours spent on the bike and swimming.

You have a long way to go, till becoming aerobic monster, so yes, high mileage and threshold will bring results. But high mileage we talk about, not 65mile a week. Maybe 100 to 150, especially if that is your sole sport. If you look at kenyans, they are so efficacious that running 200km a week us under 20hours of training. Out of 168 is not much. They have 148 to recover. So yes, high mileage is high mileage !

In one of Canova's paper he describes the progression of fast runners. He talks about 70 - 80miles a week; that is only after a bell curve of 2 decades where there are multiple peak years of 150miles a week average ! Even when he talks about 70 to 80miles a week, that is on average. These runners might still have 150 peak miles time to time, with more active recoveries than younger athletes of 30 to 40 miles a week, with longer and more relaxed recoveries.

Yeah, but Deek's 400s were notably different than what most people do when they think of 400s. That workout is more like a 5k simulator than a traditional 8 x 400. So you're being a touch disingenuous there, however it is still a valid point nonetheless

I'm not being disingenuous. Deek Quarters are well known as not being traditional 400s.