If you want to understand in medical terms that is well presented in layman's language and fun reading read the book written by the father of aerobics, Dr. Kenneth Copper. Read his book "Aerobics", the first edition. This book literally changed my life. The basis is oxygen consumption and you see how the body adapts to aerobic exercise.
Sorry for the above typo. It should read Dr. Kenneth Cooper, not Copper.
The heart is the most important muscle for a runner wrote:
I have no idea what the exact chemical/scientific reasoning and associated lingo should be used to explain the phenomenon, so my apologies for wasting your time if that's all you're looking for, but I do have personal experience with it that I could share. It was a recent development in my running life, and I haven't really ever talked or written about it like this, so my apologies for rambling here, but here goes...
I was a 15:30 guy. I used to hammer weeks upon weeks of 60-70 mpw, with easy runs ranging in the 6:20s - 6:45s, 1-2 solid workouts/week, 1 long run (which was usually some kind of progression), and then 1 or 2 full days off. Pretty standard stuff. I'd have the occasional month or two of success, but I would also fall into a lot of ruts and feel burned out. I'd hit the occasional PR, but then have long strings of unsuccessful, bonked races. My long distance PRs capped at a 1:11:30 half, and 2:33:30 full.
I'd always read and hear about people hyping up the importance of easy running, but I never bought into it. I felt fine running my easy days in the mid-6 pace range, and I didn't believe that if I slowed things down to the mid-to-high 7's that I would actually be gaining anything. I would take full days off on the days following races or hard workouts as opposed to running an easy run in the high-7s or 8:00 range, because I didn't think those would have any actual benefit, and they would just be a waste of time. I was wrong.
After a particularly long rut and string of bad races, I took a couple of weeks off, took a look at my past training, and re-evaluated what I was doing. I had a bit of an inspiration after I was smoked in a 5k by someone whom I used to completely own in college. I was shooting to run 5-flats for a 15:30ish, but ended up blowing up and running 16:10. My buddy held on and ran in the 15:20s. Post-race: we're cooling down together and discussing training. My buddy tells me that he hasn't even been doing any serious workouts in the past month. It was summer, and he was just pounding base mileage. He said that he had been logging 100-120 mile weeks, with the occasional fartlek or unplanned progression when he was feeling fresh. I asked how he wasn't feeling burned out from that. He told me that he'd been doubling almost every day, and was running everything in the high-7s range, because he knew he'd have to get back out there later that night or early the next morning and do it all over again. On days when he was feeling it, he'd throw in an impromptu fartlek or tempo workout, but other than that, nothing serious. He said he's never felt better.
So that's what I did. I steadily increased my mileage from 70mpw to 110mpw, and then held it there. I'd double most days of the week (early before work and immediately following work), and then on slow days at the office, I'd even throw in an occasional easy 30-45 mins on the treadmill in our office gym (8-8.5 mph at 1.5-2% incline). I would do 2 workouts per week, but they were VERY simple and easy compared to what I used to do. Tuesdays were short and fast reps on the track or over hills with long recoveries. Thursdays were 4-6 mile tempos - usually no faster than 5:30 pace. My long runs were 18-24 miles at an easy pace (6:50-7:10), with the occasional (usually once per month) long run where I was feeling good in the back half and threw in a progression for the last 30-45 mins. So, with the exception of the short rep and tempo workouts, everything I was doing was 6:50s - 7:45/mile pace. I felt "worked" at the end of every week, but I never felt "burned out" like I used to. I was a lot more hungry all the time, and I did have to eat a lot more, but overall, it was a good feeling, and I felt MUCH better than I did when I was going 70mpw with everything in the low-to-mid 6's.
First big race after this new style of training that I had taken on was a marathon. I had no goals, because this whole training block was like an experiment for me. I had done no particular workout or tune-up race to indicate fitness, but I knew that I felt better than I had ever felt before. I decided to go out on pace to run a PR (sub-2:33). I was running 5:45s in a pack of about 5 guys . We hit a long and gradual uphill just before the halfway point. Nearing the crest of the hill, I had an epiphany. I could clearly hear the guys around me struggling with their breathing. They were huffing and puffing and really working the hill. I felt 100% fine. I felt like I could close my mouth and breath through my nose if I wanted to. I felt like I was on a stroll through a park with my dog. It was so easy. I realized at that exact moment why high and slow mileage was one of the keys to success. I had turned into an aerobic monster. My heart was considerably stronger than it had ever been before, and it was so obvious to me now. I took a really deep and slow breath, and then let loose. I tore up the second half, running 1:15:15-1:11:10 negative splits for a 2:26:25 marathon PR (and half marathon PR in the second half). Not only did I have the race of my life, but post-race was the best I've ever felt after a marathon. I took a day or two off following the race, but I felt like I could jump right back into training again if I wanted to. It was the shortest recovery I'd ever taken following a marathon.
Since that marathon and the addition of more intensity in my workouts, I have lowered my PRs in everything from the 3K to the Marathon, and I'm closing in on the trials standard (fingers crossed to hit it this fall)...
THAT is what all those 7:30 miles are for. Aerobic strength. Laying a base and developing strength, while preventing yourself from burning out. I rarely take full days off now, because I see the importance of logging high mileage. It keeps the heart pumping. 7:30 miles are not fast enough to tax your leg muscles, but they are just quick enough to get your blood flowing and to slightly raise your heart rate. This keeps the heart working and, after months of consistency, turns it into a well-oiled machine. The heart is the most important muscle for a runner. It is the body's engine, and it's an engine that can be worked every day, and only requires easy running to do so.
great post. good luck in your continued training.
drunk runner. wrote:
My biggest regret after almost 40 years of competitive running is doing my easy days too fast.
I was too stubborn to slow down and often was over-trained or got injured.
That's me too,
Yikes123 wrote:
Ok so let's say there's a guy who has run 15:30 for 5k. He does his easy runs at 7:30 pace. What is happening in his body when he does his easy runs and how does it work? Does his body make more mitochondria? Does it make more capillaries? From everything that I have been reading, it sounds like this specific person would have to be running faster for him to gain the mitochondria and capillaries.
Sorry if I made a mistake when talking about the science stuff. I'm still trying to understand all of this.
There's a lot of anecdotal evidence in these stories, but I still don't understand the science.
Some of this keeping easy pace easy dogma sounds a bit too black and white. If a guy's running a 15:30 5k and only running 40 miles per week, I would think the volume of his mileage isn't so high that his body will struggle to recover from workout to workout. A 40 mile per week runner shouldn't have to take his easy days anywhere near as easy as a 60+ mile per week runner.
For those of us who endurance comes more naturally than speed, too much easy running messes up form and makes the legs lazy.
awesome blossom wrote:
For those of us who endurance comes more naturally than speed, too much easy running messes up form and makes the legs lazy.
Never understand people on here saying this. How does easy running make the legs lazy? Your form changes with your speed. I have very little knee lift when jogging, but when doing a workout or during a race my knee lift is nice and high. Or another I hear on here is some people claiming it is hard for them to jog slow. What? Probably some muscle issues or something.
Here's Lasse Viren, one video of him training and the other during the Olympic final.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXVvEHF98Ahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mglwnEG86Xsawesome blossom wrote:
For those of us who endurance comes more naturally than speed, too much easy running messes up form and makes the legs lazy.
How about too much non-running?
If you're running 40 miles a week and someone else is doing 110 miles a week, that's 70 miles that you're not doing at all. Thus your legs become lazy from not running.
My biggest regret is not talking more rest days. But I need to run!
Agree. One way to put it is that over time (say a year), a lot of low intensity running will add up to much more training than shorter or less frequent high intensity training. At the end of the year, the consistent jogger has put in so much more work than the low volume sprinter that the speed guy can't compete.
There's a great video of Firas Zahabi on Joe Rogan's podcast applying this principle to martial arts training. His simple example is that doing 5 pullups every day adds up to much more training than doing 10 pullups twice a week. Even relatively explosive, anaerobic sports eventually realize that volume of training over time is what wins. For pure aerobic events like long distance running, it's no contest.
my speed improvements came with increased sprint work, and ditching the extra recovery miles . 800 runner. i hate long runs .
I think it is well established that more easy miles is better than less and that easy means easy. What about the quality stuff? Most plan have one ‘speed’ + one ‘tempo’ session per week (speed’ / ´tempo’ defined according to event being prepared), is there any science behind it?
The heart is the most important muscle for a runner wrote:
I have no idea what the exact chemical/scientific reasoning and associated lingo should be used to explain the phenomenon, so my apologies for wasting your time if that's all you're looking for, but I do have personal experience with it that I could share. It was a recent development in my running life, and I haven't really ever talked or written about it like this, so my apologies for rambling here, but here goes...
I was a 15:30 guy. I used to hammer weeks upon weeks of 60-70 mpw, with easy runs ranging in the 6:20s - 6:45s, 1-2 solid workouts/week, 1 long run (which was usually some kind of progression), and then 1 or 2 full days off. Pretty standard stuff. I'd have the occasional month or two of success, but I would also fall into a lot of ruts and feel burned out. I'd hit the occasional PR, but then have long strings of unsuccessful, bonked races. My long distance PRs capped at a 1:11:30 half, and 2:33:30 full.
I'd always read and hear about people hyping up the importance of easy running, but I never bought into it. I felt fine running my easy days in the mid-6 pace range, and I didn't believe that if I slowed things down to the mid-to-high 7's that I would actually be gaining anything. I would take full days off on the days following races or hard workouts as opposed to running an easy run in the high-7s or 8:00 range, because I didn't think those would have any actual benefit, and they would just be a waste of time. I was wrong.
After a particularly long rut and string of bad races, I took a couple of weeks off, took a look at my past training, and re-evaluated what I was doing. I had a bit of an inspiration after I was smoked in a 5k by someone whom I used to completely own in college. I was shooting to run 5-flats for a 15:30ish, but ended up blowing up and running 16:10. My buddy held on and ran in the 15:20s. Post-race: we're cooling down together and discussing training. My buddy tells me that he hasn't even been doing any serious workouts in the past month. It was summer, and he was just pounding base mileage. He said that he had been logging 100-120 mile weeks, with the occasional fartlek or unplanned progression when he was feeling fresh. I asked how he wasn't feeling burned out from that. He told me that he'd been doubling almost every day, and was running everything in the high-7s range, because he knew he'd have to get back out there later that night or early the next morning and do it all over again. On days when he was feeling it, he'd throw in an impromptu fartlek or tempo workout, but other than that, nothing serious. He said he's never felt better.
So that's what I did. I steadily increased my mileage from 70mpw to 110mpw, and then held it there. I'd double most days of the week (early before work and immediately following work), and then on slow days at the office, I'd even throw in an occasional easy 30-45 mins on the treadmill in our office gym (8-8.5 mph at 1.5-2% incline). I would do 2 workouts per week, but they were VERY simple and easy compared to what I used to do. Tuesdays were short and fast reps on the track or over hills with long recoveries. Thursdays were 4-6 mile tempos - usually no faster than 5:30 pace. My long runs were 18-24 miles at an easy pace (6:50-7:10), with the occasional (usually once per month) long run where I was feeling good in the back half and threw in a progression for the last 30-45 mins. So, with the exception of the short rep and tempo workouts, everything I was doing was 6:50s - 7:45/mile pace. I felt "worked" at the end of every week, but I never felt "burned out" like I used to. I was a lot more hungry all the time, and I did have to eat a lot more, but overall, it was a good feeling, and I felt MUCH better than I did when I was going 70mpw with everything in the low-to-mid 6's.
First big race after this new style of training that I had taken on was a marathon. I had no goals, because this whole training block was like an experiment for me. I had done no particular workout or tune-up race to indicate fitness, but I knew that I felt better than I had ever felt before. I decided to go out on pace to run a PR (sub-2:33). I was running 5:45s in a pack of about 5 guys . We hit a long and gradual uphill just before the halfway point. Nearing the crest of the hill, I had an epiphany. I could clearly hear the guys around me struggling with their breathing. They were huffing and puffing and really working the hill. I felt 100% fine. I felt like I could close my mouth and breath through my nose if I wanted to. I felt like I was on a stroll through a park with my dog. It was so easy. I realized at that exact moment why high and slow mileage was one of the keys to success. I had turned into an aerobic monster. My heart was considerably stronger than it had ever been before, and it was so obvious to me now. I took a really deep and slow breath, and then let loose. I tore up the second half, running 1:15:15-1:11:10 negative splits for a 2:26:25 marathon PR (and half marathon PR in the second half). Not only did I have the race of my life, but post-race was the best I've ever felt after a marathon. I took a day or two off following the race, but I felt like I could jump right back into training again if I wanted to. It was the shortest recovery I'd ever taken following a marathon.
Since that marathon and the addition of more intensity in my workouts, I have lowered my PRs in everything from the 3K to the Marathon, and I'm closing in on the trials standard (fingers crossed to hit it this fall)...
THAT is what all those 7:30 miles are for. Aerobic strength. Laying a base and developing strength, while preventing yourself from burning out. I rarely take full days off now, because I see the importance of logging high mileage. It keeps the heart pumping. 7:30 miles are not fast enough to tax your leg muscles, but they are just quick enough to get your blood flowing and to slightly raise your heart rate. This keeps the heart working and, after months of consistency, turns it into a well-oiled machine. The heart is the most important muscle for a runner. It is the body's engine, and it's an engine that can be worked every day, and only requires easy running to do so.
Probably the best post I have ever read on here. Good luck to you Sir!
Yikes123 wrote:
SOBO:
Thank you for that video. So if my max heart rate is 200 and I'm running and my heart rate is at 120 I will be strengthening my heart muscle? And because my heart rate is above 120 the mitochondria will increase in number and size? If all of this is true then what is the point of tempo runs? Also, who is speaking in the video?
You won't increase the number of mitochondria. They get bigger when you train more and smaller when you reduce your training volume. This is probably due to oxidative stress. But the number remain the same, so ignore the mitochondria issue.
Your capillary network keeps on growing throughout your life whether you run or not. So forget about capillaries.
Your heart rates may slow down as you age, but your heart sroke volume may continue to grow, so you deliver the same amount of oxygen. So forget about your oxygen delivery.
Your ability to run efficiently may improve with more slow running. So you can maybe run faster for the same effort and maybe for longer at the same pace or a faster pace? So that's something you mustn't forget.
dunes runner wrote:
How about too much non-running?
If you're running 40 miles a week and someone else is doing 110 miles a week, that's 70 miles that you're not doing at all. Thus your legs become lazy from not running.
If no running = being sedentary, then yeah, no running may make your legs lazy. Slow running messes up your muscle memory. If the majority of your runs are at a slow place, next thing you know, that's your comfortable pace and it will take a lot of concentrated effort to move your feet faster than that.
If you're running at like 40% max heart rate, why not just use the elliptical or a stationary bike and save the impact on your legs?
And yeah, someone who is only running 40 miles a week is at a disadvantage to someone who's running 110 miles a week. But if you're only willing to devote 40 miles a week to running, you need less recovery per workout than someone running 110 miles a week. Why on Earth would you do your easy runs at the same pace as them. Shouldn't you be running your non-workout runs at the fastest pace that allows you to be fully recovered for your workouts?
Something I've been wondering about. Say you have a hour to do your distance runs. Not workout runs or long runs, but easy runs between workouts. Is it better to go really easy or slightly harder (moderate effort) pace? Would easier be better because you can recovery between runs or is moderate effort better because your body will get used to running at a slightly harder pace?
i think the doctors can help us explain this better for us
diet coke runner wrote:
Something I've been wondering about. Say you have a hour to do your distance runs. Not workout runs or long runs, but easy runs between workouts. Is it better to go really easy or slightly harder (moderate effort) pace? Would easier be better because you can recovery between runs or is moderate effort better because your body will get used to running at a slightly harder pace?
Depends on how you are feeling.
The heart is the most important muscle for a runner wrote:
I have no idea what the exact chemical/scientific reasoning and associated lingo should be used to explain the phenomenon, so my apologies for wasting your time if that's all you're looking for, but I do have personal experience with it that I could share. It was a recent development in my running life, and I haven't really ever talked or written about it like this, so my apologies for rambling here, but here goes...
I was a 15:30 guy. I used to hammer weeks upon weeks of 60-70 mpw, with easy runs ranging in the 6:20s - 6:45s, 1-2 solid workouts/week, 1 long run (which was usually some kind of progression), and then 1 or 2 full days off. Pretty standard stuff. I'd have the occasional month or two of success, but I would also fall into a lot of ruts and feel burned out. I'd hit the occasional PR, but then have long strings of unsuccessful, bonked races. My long distance PRs capped at a 1:11:30 half, and 2:33:30 full.
I'd always read and hear about people hyping up the importance of easy running, but I never bought into it. I felt fine running my easy days in the mid-6 pace range, and I didn't believe that if I slowed things down to the mid-to-high 7's that I would actually be gaining anything. I would take full days off on the days following races or hard workouts as opposed to running an easy run in the high-7s or 8:00 range, because I didn't think those would have any actual benefit, and they would just be a waste of time. I was wrong.
After a particularly long rut and string of bad races, I took a couple of weeks off, took a look at my past training, and re-evaluated what I was doing. I had a bit of an inspiration after I was smoked in a 5k by someone whom I used to completely own in college. I was shooting to run 5-flats for a 15:30ish, but ended up blowing up and running 16:10. My buddy held on and ran in the 15:20s. Post-race: we're cooling down together and discussing training. My buddy tells me that he hasn't even been doing any serious workouts in the past month. It was summer, and he was just pounding base mileage. He said that he had been logging 100-120 mile weeks, with the occasional fartlek or unplanned progression when he was feeling fresh. I asked how he wasn't feeling burned out from that. He told me that he'd been doubling almost every day, and was running everything in the high-7s range, because he knew he'd have to get back out there later that night or early the next morning and do it all over again. On days when he was feeling it, he'd throw in an impromptu fartlek or tempo workout, but other than that, nothing serious. He said he's never felt better.
So that's what I did. I steadily increased my mileage from 70mpw to 110mpw, and then held it there. I'd double most days of the week (early before work and immediately following work), and then on slow days at the office, I'd even throw in an occasional easy 30-45 mins on the treadmill in our office gym (8-8.5 mph at 1.5-2% incline). I would do 2 workouts per week, but they were VERY simple and easy compared to what I used to do. Tuesdays were short and fast reps on the track or over hills with long recoveries. Thursdays were 4-6 mile tempos - usually no faster than 5:30 pace. My long runs were 18-24 miles at an easy pace (6:50-7:10), with the occasional (usually once per month) long run where I was feeling good in the back half and threw in a progression for the last 30-45 mins. So, with the exception of the short rep and tempo workouts, everything I was doing was 6:50s - 7:45/mile pace. I felt "worked" at the end of every week, but I never felt "burned out" like I used to. I was a lot more hungry all the time, and I did have to eat a lot more, but overall, it was a good feeling, and I felt MUCH better than I did when I was going 70mpw with everything in the low-to-mid 6's.
First big race after this new style of training that I had taken on was a marathon. I had no goals, because this whole training block was like an experiment for me. I had done no particular workout or tune-up race to indicate fitness, but I knew that I felt better than I had ever felt before. I decided to go out on pace to run a PR (sub-2:33). I was running 5:45s in a pack of about 5 guys . We hit a long and gradual uphill just before the halfway point. Nearing the crest of the hill, I had an epiphany. I could clearly hear the guys around me struggling with their breathing. They were huffing and puffing and really working the hill. I felt 100% fine. I felt like I could close my mouth and breath through my nose if I wanted to. I felt like I was on a stroll through a park with my dog. It was so easy. I realized at that exact moment why high and slow mileage was one of the keys to success. I had turned into an aerobic monster. My heart was considerably stronger than it had ever been before, and it was so obvious to me now. I took a really deep and slow breath, and then let loose. I tore up the second half, running 1:15:15-1:11:10 negative splits for a 2:26:25 marathon PR (and half marathon PR in the second half). Not only did I have the race of my life, but post-race was the best I've ever felt after a marathon. I took a day or two off following the race, but I felt like I could jump right back into training again if I wanted to. It was the shortest recovery I'd ever taken following a marathon.
Since that marathon and the addition of more intensity in my workouts, I have lowered my PRs in everything from the 3K to the Marathon, and I'm closing in on the trials standard (fingers crossed to hit it this fall)...
THAT is what all those 7:30 miles are for. Aerobic strength. Laying a base and developing strength, while preventing yourself from burning out. I rarely take full days off now, because I see the importance of logging high mileage. It keeps the heart pumping. 7:30 miles are not fast enough to tax your leg muscles, but they are just quick enough to get your blood flowing and to slightly raise your heart rate. This keeps the heart working and, after months of consistency, turns it into a well-oiled machine. The heart is the most important muscle for a runner. It is the body's engine, and it's an engine that can be worked every day, and only requires easy running to do so.
7/10 not bad bro
awesome blossom wrote:
[quote]Yikes123 wrote:
Some of this keeping easy pace easy dogma sounds a bit too black and white. If a guy's running a 15:30 5k and only running 40 miles per week, I would think the volume of his mileage isn't so high that his body will struggle to recover from workout to workout. A 40 mile per week runner shouldn't have to take his easy days anywhere near as easy as a 60+ mile per week runner.
For those of us who endurance comes more naturally than speed, too much easy running messes up form and makes the legs lazy.
I thought lack of endurance/strength messed up form not being slow, and long slow runs built up strength rather than sapping strength.
Competitive runners want to keep improving.
Another reason to run more is as "The heart..." mentioned is the experience is different for a 110/week runner than it is for a 40/week runner. Even if the increased mileage hadn't resulted in a PR the absolute certainty of having achieved a before unimagined level of fitness is an amazing feeling even if you're not that fast. Straining and pain aren't there anymore. The performance ceiling is now the new floor. What's the next level after this one like?
beware of exercise physiologists who make stuff up and misinterp wrote:
Yikes123 wrote:
SOBO:
Thank you for that video. So if my max heart rate is 200 and I'm running and my heart rate is at 120 I will be strengthening my heart muscle? And because my heart rate is above 120 the mitochondria will increase in number and size? If all of this is true then what is the point of tempo runs? Also, who is speaking in the video?
You won't increase the number of mitochondria. They get bigger when you train more and smaller when you reduce your training volume. This is probably due to oxidative stress. But the number remain the same, so ignore the mitochondria issue.
Your capillary network keeps on growing throughout your life whether you run or not. So forget about capillaries.
Your heart rates may slow down as you age, but your heart sroke volume may continue to grow, so you deliver the same amount of oxygen. So forget about your oxygen delivery.
Your ability to run efficiently may improve with more slow running. So you can maybe run faster for the same effort and maybe for longer at the same pace or a faster pace? So that's something you mustn't forget.
Incorrect, but feel free to post some studies highlighting your points, will be happy to discuss further.