Any masters runners here use Tinman's methods?

Thank you.

pupko - yes, either one looks good but your 2nd (corrected) suggestion is better IMO. Portland does a similar rotation. He does what he calls "long-medium-short" where is "long" are 8-9 mile steady states, "medium" are LT or 10k pace repeats, and "short" are short fartleks or hill repeats @ 1500m effort. He does this in XC and constantly cycles through it.

HDhhdhsh - I am familiar with Mike Smith and where he places it. I know many programs that do that. The reason why we don't go Sunday is because we have to allow a day off per week according to NCAA rules. I could use the midweek recovery run as a day off, but I like the athletes having at least a day on the weekend where they don't have that practice obligation. I pick Sunday because it usually isn't a race day. I don't want them to do long runs on their own because in the past I have had people just stay up late, sleep in all day, and long run in the evening and not be recovered the next day. Because of that potential, I like Sunday to be an easy run. That is also why we don't do a Mon/Thur schedule for workouts either as long run followed by a workout is tough. Although I like the idea of two days between workouts much better, I am not willing to have the long run after a workout if I have to put it on a Saturday. Having the long run on a Monday or something wouldn't work either because it would be too close to a race. I feel like none of the workouts we do are too difficult to where you can't recover from them. The lack of two days between workouts for recovery also keeps myself honest as a coach in making sure workouts aren't out of control with volume/intensity.

P.S. The most high profile program I know that follows the same weekly schedule is BYU. Except the obvious days off on Sunday. They have proven its merits.

Ghtdd - No one is claiming to be an expert. If you are so insecure to where the only thing you are capable of chiming in on are low tier insults then by all means continue to amuse yourself by drooling all over the keyboard. This thread has deviated from its original purpose, but instead we have good discussion which is quite rare on these boards even with well-intentioned threads. If more masters people want to discuss their training then they can. They seem to be a bit shy at doing so (except for the last couple posts back).

Thanks, former Sub 14. I love this thread and your explanations are excellent. Any advice on how to handle the athlete that seems to break down once weekly races start? Right now, we have a big Tuesday workout, that at the beginning of the season is a fartlek or threshold workout with 200's after, along with a Thursday workout that is less demanding and a tempo on Saturday, long run Sunday. When weekly races start, the meet takes the place of the tempo. Mid way through the season, the big fartlek/threshold workout, turns in to traditional 3200 and 1600 pace reps (4x800,4x400) or something similar. Most of my athletes are fine with this, but my most dedicated seems to get very tired. I'm thinking of bringing her miles down to 40, when races start, or experimenting with the workouts. I don't like to bring down mileage, but I am not sure what to do to keep her feeling good, and not run down.

Stagnation? wrote:

The Superior wrote:

I am soon age 60 and I built up the following system during now soon 4 years (has given 12 winners of international races )

mo: easy 60 min

tu: 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace, rec= wait easy walking until back to 120 bpm

we: easy 50 min

th: LT-intervals to a total of 10-16 km , rec same as Tuesday.

fr: easy 50 min

sa: 2 hours 20 min easy.....last 20 min at intervals 1 min fast - 1 min slow .....fast pace LT-pace .

su: RESTDAY

former 14.20/ 29.51 at 5000/ 10000m

Absolutely no so called CV training! Only linear repeated training with maxvo2 and LT pace week after week year around.

Same every week? You will not reach stagnation that way?

The paces are not the exact same every week. Will be varied up to shape of day and if its a race preparing week, a recovery week after race, or a normal training week.

Sub-14,

That Tuesday/Thursday schedule makes sense in that context.

I have heard plenty of interviews and anecdotes from runners that just ran a PR, or close to a PR, off of threshold, tempos, strides and short speed. Mile to 5k. The more research I do the more I’m convinced that little VO2 work is necessary to achieve peak form and that often you can use races to tune up.

Former Sub 14:00, I suspect that there are a healthy number of masters reading this thread but not commenting. Masters covers a very broad spectrum of abilities, from the 40+ people who may be as fast as some college runners through someone like me who is about to become a 70+ runner. The training approaches discussed by you and several others on this thread are wonderful food for thought about how to structure a training plan. The fundamental principles of training are the same for masters, but the factors of steady degrading of recovery ability and increasing susceptibility to injury become the limiting factors in executing a training plan (not to mention the training disruptions that come from having family, career, etc. obligations that are more important than running). It has been my experience that the longer a master keeps training, the more idiosyncratic their training becomes as they try to build their best personal training around the limitations that advancing age imposes.

By way of example, I am an XC-focused runner with my goal race being Club XC Nationals in December. My current training mostly has the following pattern:

D1 - 8 miles hills with 1.5mi warm up; 2.5mi uphill threshold effort; 4 miles moderate effort

D2 - 8 miles hills with 1.5mi warm up; 2.5mi uphill moderate effort; 1.5mi easy; 2.5mi downhill threshold effort

D3 - 7 miles walking recovery with 80-150M stride every 1/2 mile

When D1 or D2 fall on a weekend they become either a 12 mile long run, or 12 miles of 2 mile warm + 5x hard mile/easy mile. If they both fall on a weekend then Saturday is 8 miles hills easy and Sunday is the 12 miler.

When our local XC series starts in late August I'll race every 2 weeks until early November (7 races) with races varying from 5k to 10K. Based on experience of the last couple of years, when racing starts I'll go to alternating days of 8 mile runs and 7 mile walk recoveries in order to adequately recover from the race efforts.

Everything you and the others have discussed gives me a better perspective on what I may or may not want to do to fine tune my training. Thanks again to all of you for the excellent discussion.

Sub 14,

When you talk about long - medium - short, are you talking about the rotation of the workouts meaning:

Week 1

Q1- Long Tempo

Q2 - Medium threshold reps

Week 2

Q1 - Short Speed

Q2 - Long Tempo

Week 3

Q1 - Medium Reps

Q2 - Short speed

Repeat?

Perhaps we should start a separate thread on this. Basically a Q&A with Former Sub-14 on training philosophy. This thread has been totally hijacked to a different topic but it’s been so great. I’ve taken notes and will be applying many of these principles as I build-up after injury.

bump for sub 14

trwtrw wrote:

bump for sub 14

I wish more knowledgeable and successful coaches, like Former sub 14, would help out on some of these threads. There are a lot of coaches and runners who want to learn and get better, but need good advice.

Old guy II - Thanks for the insight. The oldest runners I have worked with a late 20's post-collegiate's but I am also contemplating getting back into competitive running myself. I never trained for the marathon and I should do it once before I completely hang it up. I will be in the masters category sooner before I know it and I think the emphasis on threshold work will help myself a lot. A lot of masters runners do get caught in a routine but that is not a bad thing. Routines are good and keeping it simple is almost always better. Your fitness only matters if you can get to the line healthy to compete.

learning - I don't know the specifics of your 1600m/3200m workouts, but are you sure that the slower runners are doing them at the right effort level? My wife struggles with this as well. She gives her slower runners workout paces that she thinks are appropriate, but they are almost always going too easy. Slower runners tend to make bigger jumps in fitness on a week-to-week basis so sometimes their fitness is a moving target. A lot of race data is useless because of how quickly they can improve. However, I am sure you pay attention to your more dedicated runners as they are faster/more consistent so their workout paces are more realistic. Maybe they are running the workouts appropriately but perhaps the workouts themselves are too difficult in the context of a long HS season? Again, I am just trying to think of discrepancies between the two ability groups and how one recovers better than the other.

pupko - Portland coach does this:

Week 1

Q1- 8-9 mile steady state

Q2 - either 8xmile @ threshold OR 10x1000m @ 10k (800s in the summer)

Week 2

Q1 - almost always 400s or short fartlek @ 3k-1500m effort

Q2 - 8-9 mile steady state

Week 3

Q1 - either 8xmile @ threshold OR 10x1000m @ 10k

Q2 - 400s or short fartlek @ 3k-1500m effort

Race weeks often will be timed to fall on a "week 2" of the rotation. When that happens he still does the "short" workout but the "long" workout is substituted with the race. Source? I had a couple guys who were on my team who were friends with Jeff Thies and Danny Martinez. Both successful runners for the program. Maybe it is has changed since then but that is what they did at least as early as a year or two ago.

Running at 10 k pace in training is just waist of time!

The Superior wrote:

I am soon age 60 and I built up the following system during now soon 4 years (has given 12 winners of international races )

mo: easy 60 min

tu: 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace, rec= wait easy walking until back to 120 bpm

we: easy 50 min

th: LT-intervals to a total of 10-16 km , rec same as Tuesday.

fr: easy 50 min

sa: 2 hours 20 min easy.....last 20 min at intervals 1 min fast - 1 min slow .....fast pace LT-pace .

su: RESTDAY

former 14.20/ 29.51 at 5000/ 10000m

Absolutely no so called CV training! Only linear repeated training week after week year around.

+ 1 this

Thanks sub14. What you say, could be a possibility. The runner of concern is very dedicated and tries to hit every pace correctly; not too fast, not too slow, whether it's a workout, long run or easy run. The other runners tend to slack off some days. Instead of bringing mileage down, I might tweak her in season workout schedule in hopes of keeping her strong and not run down. Thanks for all your ideas

My training partners have been using DANCAN ? or something like that it brought them down to 20x400 s @ 68 with rest down to 120 bpm from 74 s. He had some very good results.

Sub 14,

Does Portland follow a similar structure for track?

just tell- tell that to Rob. They are pretty damn good.

pupko - yes, but the "medium workout" will also include work at 5k pace on some days. He has an incredibly simple schedule.

Sub-14,

Can you please share a bit more about what your training looks like during the summer and XC season?

Former Wildcat wrote:

Sub-14,

Can you please share a bit more about what your training looks like during the summer and XC season?

Yes, Sub 14, I'd like to know this too. I'd also love to know, if following this kind of schedule, what pace do you think is the most effective pace for "everyday" runs and recovery runs after a hard workout.