Magness and Marcus subtle Tinman criticism

absoutely trying hard wrote:

It's not hard to find out who these people have coached.

Marcus:

https://www.highperformancewest.com

No athletes listed....?

podcast for money? lol wrote:

First, making a running coaching podcast is no effective way to make money. I think it's pretty clear that they genuinely want to help other coaches get better at coaching.

Final Surge and Health IQ sponsored a handful of podcasts.

Outside of the podcast, they have essentially a book club where they charge $300 for membership:

Anyways, as someone else stated earlier, I'd like them to get in a lab and generate some original exercise physiology research on their own as opposed to taking work from others...like real experts.

British Columbia Nerd Club wrote:

podcast for money? lol wrote:

First, making a running coaching podcast is no effective way to make money. I think it's pretty clear that they genuinely want to help other coaches get better at coaching.

Final Surge and Health IQ sponsored a handful of podcasts.

Outside of the podcast, they have essentially a book club where they charge $300 for membership:

https://www.highperformancewest.com/shop?category=Membershiphttps://the-science-of-running.teachable.com/p/the-scholar-program

Anyways, as someone else stated earlier, I'd like them to get in a lab and generate some original exercise physiology research on their own as opposed to taking work from others...like real experts.

They're coaches. Not researchers. Tinman doesn't generate original exercise physiology research. Neither does Mark Wetmore, Alberto Salazar, Jerry Schumacher, or whoever else. Joe Vigil has a PhD and doesn't do original research. Why? He's a coach.

Anybody here willing to admit they pay for one of the paid products from M&M?

magness, marcus, and tinman sure talk a lot for coaches who haven't achieved anything

if tinman didn't luck out with drew hunter, he'd still be a complete nobody

If AlSal didn’t luck out with the Gouchers he’d be an idiot with the Nike black Amex card.. yes Rupp came along ...the rest is history. Tin has done more real coaching in the last 15-20 years than AlSal will ever do. He ran 13:11, 27:25; 2:08:13 ... had talent ...earned his way into Nike...the rest is history. Tin has developed more sub 9:00 HS guys and gathered together a group of guys who want to reach for the stars ... AlSal was about there in 2004 ... he sucked.

The best training pace is race pace. When more coaches realize how to utilize that, times will come down.

Canova runs a group run where guys go until they can't keep up anymore and falls off. That is essentially a race for everybody but the one guy left running.

That's also where the term rust buster comes in. You aren't going to run your best times until you have run a few races.

Run fast by running fast..... wrote:

The best training pace is race pace. When more coaches realize how to utilize that, times will come down.

Canova runs a group run where guys go until they can't keep up anymore and falls off. That is essentially a race for everybody but the one guy left running.

That's also where the term rust buster comes in. You aren't going to run your best times until you have run a few races.

Which is why Canova trains by percentage of race pace and his periodisation works by this, increasing distance and intensity over time. So that his athletes are prepared to run the distance at the pace.

Casino Casanova wrote:

Run fast by running fast..... wrote:

The best training pace is race pace. When more coaches realize how to utilize that, times will come down.

Canova runs a group run where guys go until they can't keep up anymore and falls off. That is essentially a race for everybody but the one guy left running.

That's also where the term rust buster comes in. You aren't going to run your best times until you have run a few races.

Which is why Canova trains by percentage of race pace and his periodisation works by this, increasing distance and intensity over time. So that his athletes are prepared to run the distance at the pace.

AlSal and Canova dope ... count it. Nothing wrong with dope, but don’t compare what the doper can accomplish vs the natural man. Are you clear ..?!

Jzs wrote:

If AlSal didn’t luck out with the Gouchers he’d be an idiot with the Nike black Amex card.. yes Rupp came along ...the rest is history. Tin has done more real coaching in the last 15-20 years than AlSal will ever do. He ran 13:11, 27:25; 2:08:13 ... had talent ...earned his way into Nike...the rest is history. Tin has developed more sub 9:00 HS guys and gathered together a group of guys who want to reach for the stars ... AlSal was about there in 2004 ... he sucked.

Why...do...you...write...like...this..?

Hanzo wrote:

Tinman almost never prescribes the Jack Daniels 1 hour pace (only in super early base he prescribes 1k repeats at threshold instead of CV), because it simply doesn't have the same benefits as CV and MP runs do most of the mental training to hold a decent pace without being taxing to the body.

Isn't that the point of the podcast? To say that there is no such magic zone?

Big words.... wrote:

Leave it to Beaverton wrote:

If these two guys know so much about coaching why haven’t they had any success doing it?

A couple of wanna bes.

Haha! + 10/10 !

It is really hard if not impossible to base the success of a coach solely on their runners. Arthur Lydiard would have been a no-name if it was me that decided to train with him over the guys that did.

First of all i am not a formula guy when it comes to training. I dont think it is all as simple as following any plan exactly as there are too many variables daily that need to be considered. I also dont care about terminology like threshold, cv........ i do think that these guys all raise issues and create ideas that are valuable and need to be considered. For example the cv stuff reminds us of the concept of train dont strain ( a concept recognized much earlier by lydiard). Jack daniels has some stuff that is similar.

For me there are times when a pace range is valuable (ex: tempo type effort can be effective give/take 5 seconds per mile and still be valuable). Sometimes the tempo is prescribed at 5:15 pace but i believe 5:10-5:20 pace will still be very helpful. Some times it might be better to be more exact. Ex: 10x 400 at mile pace. Again, being off one second either way still provides a good and beneficial workout.

On occasion it is good to squeeze the workout a bit. However i would believe this is the art of coaching when you pick the times this is valuable. It shouldnt be done often.

Running at different paces (400/800/mile/3k/5k/10k/hm....) are all valuable. The pace of

easy running and recovery running is also important and valuable. All of these should be intermixed at different times of a season.

Training is more than physiology. It is also designed to develop confidence, mental toughness, concentration as well.

The training process involves stages (periods) such as:

- being able to run required distance

- determining date pace

- incorporating runs that develop aerobic capacity

- developing/increasing threshold paces

-adding in some neuromuscular work (speed)

- selecting a mix of workouts that focus on ability to run faster at race pace (without trying to do this at every distance)

- ensuring not over training

- usually resulting in 1.5 to 2 quality sessions a week and a long run of 18-25% of weekly mileage.

In some ways this is pretty simple but it does involve a mixture of being an artist/coach to go along with basic science.

Bigmeech1 wrote:

https://twitter.com/jmarpdx/status/1096781245663440899?s=21

You are 100% in charge of your poor fashion choices

In Recovery wrote:

Casino Casanova wrote:

Which is why Canova trains by percentage of race pace and his periodisation works by this, increasing distance and intensity over time. So that his athletes are prepared to run the distance at the pace.

AlSal and Canova dope ... count it. Nothing wrong with dope, but don’t compare what the doper can accomplish vs the natural man. Are you clear ..?!

Disagree, you can train with the same principles as doped athletes. You just have to adjust the workload, volume, intensity, rest etc. accordingly. For example, supposedly Noureddine Morceli did 30 x 400 @ 1500m pace. While clean athletes can do 400m reps at 1500m pace, they can not do the same volume. At the end of the day we all have the same physiology, and all doping does is multiple the results one get from training.

I had a slightly different take on the M & M podcast. Sure they might have thrown a jab at Tinman with his CV training, which I really like. However, I think they were throwing a right cross at us runners or coaches who are always looking for the silver to get the next PR, BQ, or OLympic Marathon Trial Qualifying time. We always want an easy answer to improve, but it is really stress, rest, and improve. The stress can be VO2 max, Critical Velocity, Lasso 800s or any other training stimulus of the moment. We’re the idiots that make everything seem the next GOAT! Maybe M & M just making fun us for riding the training bandwagons.

What makes you fitter?

A:

10 weeks of hardcore workouts (100% Vo2max)

3 weeks of racing and therefore reduced volume to recover from the hard stuff

2 weeks off

12 weeks of easy base mileage because you tapped into the reserves too much

repeat

or

B:

50 weeks of controlled workouts at 90% Vo2max (some faster, some slower, never more than you can handle in the long term)

CV is not magical because it does something for your body that other paces cannot. It works so well because you can do a lot of it for a long period of time without burning you out. It is enough stimulus to cause a great deal of adaption while it is easy enough to be sustainable. It gives the most bang for the bucks.

Add in plenty of slow stuff for endurance, hills for power and some very fast stuff for biomechanics/technique/turnover. I don't care about scientific explanations behind this all. Tinmans training works well and this is what matters.

Btw: Magness does a good job of calling out other gurus. When a crossfit guy tells you that the best way to train for a marathon is by running 3 tabata sessions a week plus lifiting heavy weights then he does it rightfully so.

Actually history of running and training systems has shown that there are just three main factors to train for the best results in middle/ longdistance running. Too many coaches and runners try to complicate something that infact is quite simple .