New study by Pitsiladis et al: EPO does work on Kenyans living at altitude!

Kiprop did an experiment and ran 3:26 on EPO

B test Lagat and El G camp also did their own experiments

3:26 has never been run without EPO

Plus here's the list of the female top marathons from 2 years ago, compiled by rjm:

1 2:15:25 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests, 21.88% increase in Hb in 2 days in 2003, 16.2 g/dL Hb level in 2012)

2 2:17:01 Mary Keitany (on leaked Fancy Bears Atypical ABP blood test result with follow up testing list)

3 2:17:18 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

4 2:17:42 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood test results)

5 2:17:56 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck, she was at the Sabadell Spain hotel with Genzebe and Jama during EPO raid)

6 2:18:20 Liliya Shobukhova (banned for doping with EPO, adverse ABP)

7 2:18:31 Tirunesh Dibaba (bad luck she was at the EPO raid in Sabadell)

8 2:18:37 Mary Keitany (Atypical ABP blood test result on Fancy Bears leaked list)

9 2:18:47 Catherine N'dereba....set in 2001. No ABP at the time.

10 2:18:56 Paula Radcliffe (multiple suspicious blood tests)

11 2:18:57a Rita Jeptoo (banned for doping with EPO)

Nothing to see here, lolz.

I realize that this post is layered with sarcasm, but at the same time, it seems like one fundamental correction is in order. There were limits to the conclusions that I was prepared to draw from my simple sums and averages of best times. To be crystal clear, I did not, and cannot, conclude from my simple performance measures that EPO doesn't work on Kenyans. This is quite simply due to the fact that, with very few exceptions, I don't know which are the EPO affected performances, nor what "clean baselines" would be, if I wanted to estimate effect. On the contrary, I accepted without discussion, the popular claim that "EPO works on Kenyans like everyone else". This was the driver for looking at different groups, to see how "everyone else" performed relative to East Africans in the same time period. Getting back to this born-again study, as was confirmed above, this was discussed at length recently in another thread, and these time trial results (which seem to pre-date 2013) were often discussed in many threads over the last 4-5 years. Not wishing to repeat any of those discussions, I will just limit my comment to repeating one "new" observation that came out of the recent thread. The Kenyans in the study did not push themselves in the time trials, treating them more like 3000m tempo runs, as was indicated by the relatively low "rate of perceived exertion". Compare RPEs of 17.8, 18.4, and 18.8 for the Scots to 14.6, 16.1, and 15.3 for the Kenyans. Even the fully doped EPO time trial, where the Kenyans tried the hardest, was well within the comfort zone of the Kenyans. In the past, I wrongly accused these Kenyans of being only as good as the best high school girls from the 1970s. In fact, we learned from this study that they were highly talented athletes, who just ran the time trials as fast as high school girls from the 1970s. For those who want to know more, this 224-page PhD thesis contains a lot of details:http://theses.gla.ac.uk/4962/1/2014durusselphd.pdf

null and void wrote:

This study is null and void. World class statistician Rekrunner has already conclusively proved that EPO does not work by his detailed analysis of Spanish and Moraccan elite runners in the 1990s who did not run significantly faster prior to the EPO era (statistically fullproofed by Rekrunner). World class coach Canova has also proved that EPO does not work in elite Kenyans by testing their blood and demonstrating that when hematocrit goes down, performance goes up so EPO cannot work as it actually causes the blood vessels to jam up with red blood cells thereby slowing oygen delivery to the muscles.

Studies such as this one are not necessary as they do not prove anything.

Canovaaa wrote:

I think canova guy is right .. EPO cannot work on elite because they already take EPO lol . It has to be this way

or it cannot work cause he has already TRIED it on his top stable......right right right it works and he is protected, just like mo paula and the rosa.

its business and people will do what it takes to make the money, dont be fooled by guys claiming to be recreational runners

what!?!??! lolz and how many times was i harassed about saying 4% improvements....lolz i think its the people who claim EPO doesnt work and knows it works and works precisely at the 4% level want to keep me silent. then over and over and over studies come out and show that this is the improvement FOR ALL HUMAN BEINGS

lolz..."but but but EPO is strange it works only for slow white people, ehhh i mean it works for all people who are untrained EXCEPT magically kenyans cause they live at altitude, but but not Ethiopians...mind you ONLY KENYANS....and well actually it FAILS to work only on kenyans who have been DIRECTLY COACHED or manipulated or consulted by the GOD himself RENATO"

lolz lolz lolz lolz

"roids work on everyone except for guys who have been trained by Stallone or Arnold"

"weed works on everyone except for the people who grew up in colorado"

"lying only works on those who didnt grow up in politics"

god the longer this nonsense goes on the dumber it is....like ok RENATO you claim your so f*cking smart but what about actual SCIENCE? what do you have on that? what about you rek or jonO

While the genetic difference between individual humans today is minuscule – about 0.1%, on average

so what your telling me renato is EPO works for 99.999% of the worlds IDENTICAL human population, but you somehow have found the .0001% of humans that EPO has NO EFFECT hahahahahaha. to all the morons on here who drink up the 1600's style lies, stop and THINK...how the F*CK is it possible this can be true? well it cant...so what is it then? is renato and that train of thought LIARS? or is it all humans are DAMN NEAR GENETICALLY IDENTICAL, yet SOMEHOW A F*CKING MIRACLE HAPPENED FOR A SMALL TRIBE OF KENYANS THAT THEY ARE BETTER THAN ALL THE REST OF US, and EPO has NO EFFECT ON THEIR PERFORMANCE.

well just like in the 1400's it was said the earth was the center of the universe cause someone who was a self proclaimed GOD amongst men kept telling people they were morons and dumb....now we know the truth and the people back then were being LIED to.

yup, EPO doesnt work says the EXACT people who would have the MOST to lose if was to be EXPOSED that it did work.....but i guess the brojos keep their white privileged mouths shut even when sumgong, kiprop and others get busted for something they have been FORCE FEED TO BELIEVE DOESNT WORK...

keep on renato, one day you will die or retire or whatever and who then will come on here with a 16 paragraph rant of nonsense to keep the lie going? my bett is it will be rek lolz

Lolz lolz lolz (what does it mean ?) is the only answer you can give to the facts I exposed.

In all these studies, in all your long posts (always the same, you have of sure something already ready fro several years and don't have to do fatigue for copy everytime...), NEVER THERE IS SOME INFO ABOUT THE MODERN TRAINING OF THE TOP ATHLETES (not only mine, I'm not God, there are many God among the coaches, who have clean athletes at the top of the world).

So, what you continue not to understand, is that, yes, all the human beings have the same physiological principle, BUT TRAINING GO TO MODIFY THEIR PHYSIOLOGY DEPENDING ON WHAT THEY DO : GENERAL VOLUME, LEVEL OF INTENSITY, MODULATION BETWEEN EASY DAYS AND HARD SPECIFIC DAYS, SUPERCOMPENSATION, AND AT THE END THE VOLUME OF INTENSITY.

So, I'm tired to speak with people connecting every result with doping instead than with training.

Among people with the same level of intelligence, who has the opportunity to study becomes a scientist, who is in the forrest can't achieve the same level of culture and education..... but the level of their intelligence is the same !

I don't think people must be scientists and Nobel Prizes for understanding this. This means that who is obsessed by the idea of doping (of other people....) doesn't have the ability to analyze and to consider all the possibilities, looking at one side of what happens only, and not believing in what athletes can do, in virtue of their talent and their training only.

In case you missed it, my thoughts on this topic can be found in the post just before yours. This study was also discussed already in great detail in the "Alex Hutchinson" thread, which was linked above. Nothing has changed since then.

m!ndweak wrote:

...what about you rek ...

i wonder if the certain kenyans that EPO doesnt work on, proves that they are descendants of a superior alien race?!?!!?

https://imgflip.com/i/2s957n

wonder when the next pop will happen, no worries im still waiting for whats his nuts to drop a 2:05 again hahaha riiiiiiggggght.