1 Japanese High School Coach Has Produced More Current Sub 2:10 Marathoners Than All of the United States

Hmmm, which of these countries has access to peds over the counter and a distinct lack of testing?

Likely the difference between Japan and the US is mostly running culture/participation/environment (maybe coaching). The difference between the US and Kenya is that plus a massive amount of systemic doping.

Dillllllll wrote:

Japan's corporate running team structure make it far less risky and more financially stable to try to become a 2:08-2:09 marathoner. In Japan, you will become marginally famous if you run a sub 2:10 marathon because they really like running. There simply is just very little incentive for Americans to try to become sub 2:10 marathoners.

Interestingly, Nisshin Foods, who sponsors both Sato and Murasawa (and used to sponsor Osako) , has just announced that they will disband their Ekiden team. Sato and Murasawa will remain on their payroll for the time being, but all the other runners will be released soon. And it's not because their are financially struggling. They have multi-million deals with Kei Nishikori and Naomi Osaka.

So even in Japan, tennis is far more attractive to corporate sponsors than distance running.

douglas burke wrote:

I go by the top 1000 All Time List's, The 1000th fastest time is 2:10.08

1, Kenya -464

2. Ethiopia -185

3. Japan -101

4. USA-20

5. Morrocco-19

6. Great Britain and Spain -16 each

8. Eritrea and South Africa -14 each

10. Tanzania -13

11. Italy-12

12. Mexico-11

13- France-10

14. Portugal -9

15. Korea and Brazil 8 each

So USA is # 4 in the World in Marathoning.

Sidenote Japan has 95 sub 2:10.00 Marathoners and The Continent of Europe has 99 (Marc Smet is #100 with his 2:10.00

Japan and Europe should have 100 or more sub 2:10.00 Marathoners in a few months.

I think this actually underestimates African dominance in the event -- Kenya and Ethiopia are even more dominant at the faster times.

It's also a little bit misleading because a country like the US has a much larger population than the others (especially Portugal).

Overall I think the performance in Japanese marathoning is due to a greater emphasis on distance running than the US at the high school level (and maybe a greater work ethic as well).

In American high schools the longest distance most runners will ever do is 5K in XC (and in NYC we actually ran 4K most of the time, which is 2.5 miles), and that's only one season out of the year. For most of the year we run the mile and 2 mile as the longest track events. So American high schoolers are for the most part not being trained for distance running, they're being trained for middle-distance.

In contrast, Japanese high schoolers really are being trained for distance running. The biggest running event in Japan is a high school event, the Hakone Ekiden, which has 20+km legs! So Japanese high school kids are training for distances that are 4-5 times longer than anything the American kids will be running. OF COURSE this is going to lead to greater distance running depth, under any comparable system. If American kids were training for the same distances at the same age we'd have much greater distance running depth as well.

I mentioned work ethic earlier, and honestly it's difficult to quantify that, but knowing what I do about American and Japanese society (and the nature of the thanklessness of distance running) it probably plays a significant role in Japanese success as well.

Japanese kids are definitely skinnier than American kids on average, so that helps a lot when it comes to distance running.

They also eat much healthier. We may have some of the same foods available to us, but we don't eat them (and it's actually pretty hard to find a lot of common Japanese foods in many places in the US, although the actual foods probably matter less than the composition and quantity...).

David S wrote:

In contrast, Japanese high schoolers really are being trained for distance running. The biggest running event in Japan is a high school event, the Hakone Ekiden, which has 20+km legs! So Japanese high school kids are training for distances that are 4-5 times longer than anything the American kids will be running.

Hakone Ekiden is a collegiate competition. The longest leg in a high school ekiden is 10km, and only one of the seven runners covers that distance. There are two 3km legs, and most "mid-d" types run one of those shorter legs.

Then the top 800m/1500m runners move on to college, and they train for 20km in Hakone. This is basically the graveyard of mid-d runners in Japan. The Japanese records in 800m and 1500m are 1:45.75 and 3:37.42.. If the collegiate ekiden had shorter legs like the high school ones, all the mid-d talent in Japan would not be destroyed.

It's all very simple. Americans just don't race enough anymore. The trend has been going on for years at the collegiate level and has trickled down to the high schools. You don't have to run mostly marathons like Beardsley did, but you have to be out there racing more than once every 26 weeks.

The best hard/easy approach.... wrote:

It's all very simple. Americans just don't race enough anymore. The trend has been going on for years at the collegiate level and has trickled down to the high schools. You don't have to run mostly marathons like Beardsley did, but you have to be out there racing more than once every 26 weeks.

All these top guys that we talk about that absolutely smash Americans don't race much either. Both the current system and this regressive way of thinking is just bad.

douglas burke wrote:

I go by the top 1000 All Time List's, The 1000th fastest time is 2:10.08

1, Kenya -464

2. Ethiopia -185

3. Japan -101

4. USA-20

5. Morrocco-19

6. Great Britain and Spain -16 each

8. Eritrea and South Africa -14 each

10. Tanzania -13

11. Italy-12

12. Mexico-11

13- France-10

14. Portugal -9

15. Korea and Brazil 8 each

So USA is # 4 in the World in Marathoning.

Sidenote Japan has 95 sub 2:10.00 Marathoners and The Continent of Europe has 99 (Marc Smet is #100 with his 2:10.00

Japan and Europe should have 100 or more sub 2:10.00 Marathoners in a few months.

See, I knew by instinct Morocco and Eritrea would be lower than America. If you told someone that Kenya had 464 top 1000 guys, and America had 20, they wouldn't be stupid to think that America was at the back end of the bell curve. Kenya (and to a lesser extent Ethiopia and Japan) are just that d@mn deep.

The U.S. is an ethnically more diverse country than the three ahead of it on this list, which in the wider scope has interesting effects. We are the equivalent to Kenya's marathon standing if you make the list of the top 1000 100m ever, and Kenya and Ethiopia vanish entirely replaced by Jamaicans and west and southern Africans.

The interesting lists would be top 1000 for 800/1500/mile. Kenya would be on top, but not by nearly as much.

You have so much diversity over in the USA - of course you have the genetic talent. I agree, it must just be hidden because of the way western society is today.

observant wrote:

Name the top three marathoners in the world, off the top of your head. Pretty tough, huh, and you're an avid runner. Now, name who you believe is the best football or basketball player in the world. Therein lies the answer to this question.

Just stopping by to say that this is one of the more idiotic things posted on LRC in recent times.

Everyone always asks what the US is doing wrong with marathoning while ignoring what the US is doing right on the track. The Japanese have ekiden, and they focus on running long distances on the roads from a much younger age than Americans, who stay on the track. As a result, Japanese track distance running (and especially mid-distance running) is garbage compared to the US. They don’t ever have medal contenders at 800m, 1500m, steeple, 5k, or 10k like the US often does. They don’t even have any truly “world-class” people at these distances.

Instead, they have a bunch of B-level marathoners who still can’t compete internationally with the best Africans. In fact, the Japanese man closest to being an internationally competitive marathoner is Osako, and he’s been training stateside under an American coach for years.

If you ask me, the Japanese can keep their marathoning “secrets”.

YMMV wrote:

3200y5000 wrote:

See, I knew by instinct Morocco and Eritrea would be lower than America. If you told someone that Kenya had 464 top 1000 guys, and America had 20, they wouldn't be stupid to think that America was at the back end of the bell curve. Kenya (and to a lesser extent Ethiopia and Japan) are just that d@mn deep.

The U.S. is an ethnically more diverse country than the three ahead of it on this list, which in the wider scope has interesting effects. We are the equivalent to Kenya's marathon standing if you make the list of the top 1000 100m ever, and Kenya and Ethiopia vanish entirely replaced by Jamaicans and west and southern Africans.

The interesting lists would be top 1000 for 800/1500/mile. Kenya would be on top, but not by nearly as much.

1500- 1000th fastest Performer is 3:38.19

1. Kenya-175

2. USA-136

3. Great Britain-60

4. Morroco-52

5. France-52

6. Spain -48

7. Germany-47

8. Ethiopia-37

9. Australia 31

10. Belgium 29

11. Algeria-26

12. South Africa-25

13. Russia-21

14. Italy-19

15. Irland-17

16. Canada, New Zealand and Poland 16 each

800-1000th fastest Performer is 1:46.44

1. Kenya-177

2. USA-169

3. Great Britain -65

4. Germany-59

5. Russia and France-33

7. South Africa-31

8. Spain-29

9. Australia-26

10.Morrocco-25

11. Italy-21

12 Algeria-19

13. Canada-18

14. Brazil-17

15. Poland -14

Thanks...exactly what I would have predicted for Kenya/U.S.

Ehso wrote:

In fact, the Japanese man closest to being an internationally competitive marathoner is Osako, and he’s been training stateside under an American coach for years.

^This. If you want to know how American marathon runners can do better, look no further than Pete Julian. Osako has run faster than anyone training under a Japanese coach.

Funny that China, the largest country, isn't on any of these lists (but might be for 100m or 110h).

I find his emphasis on XC in the development of his athletes very interesting. That aspect is almost completely ignored in Europe in favour of track and road.

Could someone give us a better insight into this aspect of his training??

How many guys that are bashing Americans that have not broken sub-2:10 have actually run a sub-2:10 marathon themselves? If it were Dathan or Rupp making these comments that would carry some weight. None of the commentators have, respectfully. Why aren't there more? It is a damn good time that is why. A 2:09:59 is 4:57 per mile.