Farah doing low squats with 40kg- so where does his speed come from?

ATG?? wrote:

Those squats weren't ass to grass, not even close.

yeah, those were barely 90 degrees let along a real deep squat

fisky wrote:

Question...

I question the benefits of ass-to-grass squats. Alan2004, should we be doing these? Anyone else want to jump in with an informed opinion?

No one besides sprinters coming out of the blocks needs strength at this extreme range of motion, in my opinion. Plus, the weight plus the extreme knee flexion puts the knees at risk for injury.

I seldom go below thighs parallel to the ground on squats. Opinions?

I do go slightly lower doing air squats and wall balls, but that's only a twice-monthly workout for me.

I think you're right that the deep squats aren't necessary. I grew up doing deep squats (i.e., hamstring touches calf) with a speedskating/cycling background and comfortable with them but guessing not beneficial for a distance runner as never really need that deep angle

Gggggg wrote:

https://youtu.be/91TZh72MnZI

In this clip Farah does ass to grass squats of 6 reps with 40kg. He weights about 60 kg. This is pretty weak compare to his body weight. It’s 66% of his body weight. I can do the same sets with almost 90% of my body weight (and I’m pretty fit, probably around 10% body fat (Farah is probably around 3-5% ) Yet I’m nowhere near his speed. I can run 400m in around 70 seconds, and 100m in about 15. He can run 400 in sub 50, maybe even around 48. And 100m probably in sub 12

So where does his speed come from? Does speed has no relation to your squat capability? Or does Farah plays around in this clip and can actually squat way more?

Of course speed and strength aren’t highly correlated.

I would look at his muscle physiology and his build

boomheadshot wrote:

Gggggg wrote:

ass to grass squats

I may be getting rusty, but i'm going to assume that this was intended to be sarcasm.

Here's real ATG squats, about 425 lbs.

fisky wrote:

Question...

I question the benefits of ass-to-grass squats. Alan2004, should we be doing these? Anyone else want to jump in with an informed opinion?

No one besides sprinters coming out of the blocks needs strength at this extreme range of motion, in my opinion. Plus, the weight plus the extreme knee flexion puts the knees at risk for injury.

I seldom go below thighs parallel to the ground on squats. Opinions?

I do go slightly lower doing air squats and wall balls, but that's only a twice-monthly workout for me.

I particularly enjoy goblet squats because I can squat very deeply and keep my heels grounded while doing them. I do not do front squats or conventional back squats, but I do “hex-bar deadlifts” which though more like a deadlift than a squat are a hybrid of the two. In my once weekly free-weight session ( I also do a weekly plyo/medicine ball session and a weekly body-weight/balance session) I typically include:

goblet squats: 2 sets x 6 reps x 50 pounds

hex-bar deadlifts: 4 sets x 6 reps x 170 pounds

I ‘m 6’3”, 169 pounds, 56 years and this does NOT injure me. I am probably ready to go heavier on the hex-bar deadlifts. I also perform lunges of various types including the Bulgarian split-squat, another squat hybrid. I think I’m hitting the big 3 movements for weight training of the legs by doing lunges, squats and deadlifts.

I’m posting via my phone now and cannot easily search but somebody posted a link on LetsRun - recently I think- to a good paper saying that range of motion during squats IS important.

WRONG.......strength to weight ratio is extremely important to running fast. Reduces RSI and improves functional joint angles to maintain good form.

As for the original video.....LOL. Simple push/pull/leg circuit a few times a week. I have freshman girls doing that workout. Lets not confuse his lifting with being a world class runner.

And now for something completely different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VTqFGiWKNo

20 year analysis wrote:

He's a distance runner with world class fitness. What's so hard to understand? He ran 12.98 in a 100m race.

This stupid argument comes up time after time about how fast people think Farah or Bekele could run 400. And the same argument is repeated over and over where people project their imaginary time onto them without understand that these runners can hold a very long sprint at the end of a race because of their level of fitness.

If you do a bit more anyalysis you will see that sprint times vary quite a lot amongst 5000m runners.

“Hold a very long sprint”. Very funny. You really think a guy that runs 51 last lap of a 5k holds his sprint during that last lap?

A 51 last lap 5k guy must run sub 12 or even close to 11. I don’t know what was going on with Farah at this race, but that wasn’t his sprint. Kipchoge run a marathon at around 17 seconds 100m. Be certain that he can run a sub 12 for 100. He does 200s at the end of a track session in 27 seconds. Those long distance elites don’t “hold their sprint” they are very fast guys. Farah’s time for 1,500 is 3:29- that’s 13.93 each 100m. No way his 100m time is 12.9, even if it’s not a flying start. You can’t run 3:29 without being a sub 12 or even close to 11 sec guy

YMMV wrote:

And now for something completely different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VTqFGiWKNo

what's the purpose of a maybe 20 degree bend for those "squats"?

I don't know the purpose of doing just a slight knee bend but that is a lot of weight Makh Daddy is doing there. The weight bar is itself bending. He is an 800/1500 guy, so that accounts in part for seeking a heavy squat, needing a lot more explosiveness than Farah (although Farah also ran 3:28.81, very close to Makh's two best times). What I can say from having only recent started squatting with weight is that when you go down only a little with weight that is hard for you to hold at all, is that it is making you stronger. That is, you are working at your limits and the range only means that you are not working through a lot of muscle groups that you would work through with a deep squat. I am to this point doing only max 135 squat and more often doing 115 and the range of motion is now a lot more than Makh with 300 or whatever that was, but not quite as much as Mo. And I can feel it in the muscles for days. It is clearly doing something and it is not injuring me. Gradually, you do want to expand at least to quads being parallel to the ground, but weak distance runners get a lot more stimulus from Makh style work than non-weight lifting.

yes, I get that he is utilizing some muscle strength to do this small squat but wouldn't it be more beneficial to do less weight and go at least parallel and then use more muscle groups like you say? unless there is a injury risk of going deeper for him or he is just focusing on a short explosive movement I don't get why he wouldn't just use less weight with more range of motion

In my peak I could do a full 315 squat (nowadays maybe 225lbs but took a 5 year break from any lifting)

At what point in your stride cycle is your thigh parallel to the ground?

Sprinting fast requires quick explosive movements. Slowly doing a squat is not sprint specific. Sure it requires the constant firing of fast twitch muscle fibers, but a sprint requires the perfect timing of the firing of fibers. They are two totally different exercises. Most sub 3:30 1500 runners probably can't/don't squat that much. Can you see Asbel squating more than 150lbs? You really don't need super speed to be an elite 1500 runner. The fastest closers run maybe 24 sec final 200m of race, maybe 50 flat 400m like in the last Olympic final. No need to lift weights to hit these marks, though it obviously helps some of those athletes.

YMMV wrote:

Tron wrote:

yes, I get that he is utilizing some muscle strength to do this small squat but wouldn't it be more beneficial to do less weight and go at least parallel and then use more muscle groups like you say? unless there is a injury risk of going deeper for him or he is just focusing on a short explosive movement I don't get why he wouldn't just use less weight with more range of motion

In my peak I could do a full 315 squat (nowadays maybe 225lbs but took a 5 year break from any lifting)

At what point in your stride cycle is your thigh parallel to the ground?

yes, I acknowledged in one of my prior posts that runners may not need that full range squat but....If you do a full squat, it also strengths the muscles around the ones solely used in a running stride. I'm no expert so could be wrong but wouldn't more balanced muscles be beneficial?

No one is stopping you from doing both.

There is an emergency anabolic response to piling on heavy weight and doing any sort of motion. The body " thinks" "I better get stronger".

YMMV wrote:

No one is stopping you from doing both.

sure, but that doesn't really answer the question though. He is literally just unlocking his legs before going back up. How much benefit is he getting from such a small range of motion?

Tron wrote:

YMMV wrote:

No one is stopping you from doing both.

sure, but that doesn't really answer the question though. He is literally just unlocking his legs before going back up. How much benefit is he getting from such a small range of motion?

You would have to ask him, but I can see it as basically an almost isometric exercise to create stability and help more with injury-prevention than motive force. Basically an eccentric movement.

I agree that for propulsive benefit you would want to go lower. Personally I do mixed sets of weighted lunges, small jumps and squats at 1/4, 1/2 and full, as I want strength not just for running but other realms of activity as well.

Very successful HS sprint coach who also has worked with Derek Rose and Chris Brown of Bahamas on squats and speed:

https://www.freelapusa.com/is-your-squat-making-you-slower-and-wrecking-your-vertical-jump/