Sledge_hammer wrote:
Wow, Haile "Sour Grapes" Gebrselassie.
Only idiots would buy into that 4% nonsense. It won't make you faster than you are in other racing flats. Case closed.
Very soon, Haile's former world record will fall off the top ten.
HE is not happy about it.
He's also not happy that the EPO they've found seems to be catching up with the good stuff they had in the 90s.
Shoes & Tracks ... a dirt/cinder track is +1.5%. Ron Clarke (27:39.89) might have run 27:14 a mark that would’ve lasted nearly 20 yrs.
His legendary status is intact. In his time he had a decisive advantage with his gear over past athletes. Should we start comparing the lousy trainers and race shoes worn by athletes and come up with a time formula twenty years prior to Geb?
This is where I lose respect for an athlete. Geb, you had your time. It was incredible, but it’s over. Such is life. Move on.
wejo wrote:
in the case of a carbon plate in a shoe it could be much more radical.
This idea is ridiculous.
Even more ridiculous than saying if you take one toxic medical drug or another you'll be faster.
By the way you already have carbon in your feet and the rest of your body, so therefore, everyone is disqualified.
What are spikes wrote:
Vaporfly Asterisk wrote:
This really is the most moranic argument you read on the matter. It's like if someone "rode" the tour de France on a motorbike and people complained, someone going "well, let's get back to everyone taking part in penny-farthings".
Yeah technical innovations (within the ballpark) are part of any sport but the Vaporfly's carbon plate is a mechanical device, elevating the device from the realms of running shoe to something else, in exactly the same way putting a motor on a bike makes it a different device. You really don't have to be a genius to recognise that.
Spikes are mechanical devices too ya big dummie
Cool, go run a marathon in a pair of spikes then report back to us you total numpty.
Honestly, this thread has been run and re-run umpteen times on here and after the barefoot comments this is the most stupid. Even if spikes had any place in a distance road running argument, someone usually posts a picture of the levered design of the plates in the Vaporflys which shows just how moranic the comparison is.
Hale's tone wasn't pissed or unpleasant he was just stating what is obvious if a shoe gives an advantage. It diminishes some of what Kipchoge did as well if it works as advertised.
I mostly disagree, but the IAAF should...
figure out a consistent, effective, universally-applied anti-doping standard, and
finally decide how it will divide men/open from women's division, and
do some hand-waving about shoe technology
and then reset all the track and field record books.
wejo wrote:
Haile Gebrsealssie said today at the Great Ethiopian Run presser when talking with Zersenay Tadese about Tadese's world record in the half marathon finally being broken 3 weeks ago. "When you talk about a new generation (of records) you have to talk about the technology. The shoes that he (Tadese) had and the shoes that the Kenyan (Abraham Kiptum) who ran 6 seconds faster (are different). When someone runs close to your record (you think about the different technology).” Geb then turned to Tadese and said, “You had to to be able to run faster right (with the same technology)?”
Do most of you agree?
I do. Technology gains usually are incremental, but in the case of a carbon plate in a shoe it could be much more radical. At least Kiptum broke the record when the shoe was available and not a prototype not available to others.
We need to factor in EPO, as it's now obvious Geb was one of the biggest cheats ever. Have to admit he was a great responder to the drug though.
wejo wrote:
Hale's tone wasn't pissed or unpleasant he was just stating what is obvious IF a shoe gives an advantage.
It diminishes some of what Kipchoge did as well IF it works as advertised.
Which can be said about anything, like using a magic marker to draw a big X on your forehead.
Spikes are not the same as a carbon fiber plate. Spikes do not flex and move like the plate, and do not store and release energy like the carbon fiber plate reportedly does.
Geb is entitled to his opinion, and I respect it. Lets remember he was (still is?) an adidas guy.
Is there anyone who is going to dispute the fact that synthetic tracks offer an advantage over old dirt/cinder tracks?
Synthetic tracks are faster, and we acknowledge that those who ran record times on old dirt/grass or cinder tracks almost certainly would have run faster if they were on a modern synthetic track.
So we may also do this with shoes (although all competitors in a race are running on the same track...)
I am all in favor of keeping a separate list of pure world records. These would be run barefoot and naked on grass or dirt.
Sledge_hammer wrote:
Wow, Haile "Sour Grapes" Gebrselassie.
Only idiots would buy into that 4% nonsense. It won't make you faster than you are in other racing flats. Case closed.
Case closed? As in your mind?
Or just stop talking about world records.
this and this wrote:
Spikes are not the same as a carbon fiber plate. Spikes do not flex and move like the plate, and do not store and release energy like the carbon fiber plate reportedly does.
Geb is entitled to his opinion, and I respect it. Lets remember he was (still is?) an adidas guy.
Is there anyone who is going to dispute the fact that synthetic tracks offer an advantage over old dirt/cinder tracks?
Synthetic tracks are faster, and we acknowledge that those who ran record times on old dirt/grass or cinder tracks almost certainly would have run faster if they were on a modern synthetic track.
So we may also do this with shoes (although all competitors in a race are running on the same track...)
I am all in favor of keeping a separate list of pure world records. These would be run barefoot and naked on grass or dirt.
Would still have the same issues as people would develop special blades of grass, optimize blade height, pack dirt exactly the right way, etc.
zoomzoomzoom wrote:
there is no foam invented yet that gives you back more than 1% in running economy over another
and carbon PLATE is another level with another 1% from stiffness
but vaporfly is not just a flat plate at the insole or bottom of the shoe like a track spike plate that adds the benefit of stiffness
it's an engineered, shaped leaf-spring designed to return energy far beyond a foam and do it in a way that guarantees forward propulsion of that energy
there are now three studies that prove this, it can't be fairly doubted, and it's shown that some people don't just get 4% economy improvement BEYOND the already fastest shoes on the market, some people get 6% depending on their form
even more, runner weight no longer matters to a degree because the carbon spring does not bottom out like a conventional shoe
for quick reference, every 1% at 2:30 pace is 1.5 minutes
do you think it's a level playing field for someone to have a SIX minute advantage regardless if they both had the same ability in conventional shoes?
So Kipchoge is really a 2:07 runner? Ridiculous!
Never heard Geb mention his shoes were better than his predicessors when he set his world record. Or the rock hard tracks. He refused to double on thrm but never mentioned the time advantage.
Did he ever get blood tested in Ethiopia?
Exceptional feet have always been critical when it comes to longevity of a distance runner. A tremendous amount of stress is put on the feet and if they are not able to accept and return energy well you won't be able to run very fast for a very long time, if at all.
I don't think this is sour grapes with Geb. He knows he was one of the best ever of his generation and also knows that humanity is constantly advancing. He never expected to be a WR holder forever. The guy isn't stupid. There are some advancements that are more significant than others and inserting a carbon fiber leaf spring into a shoe is one of them.
The Vaporfly benefits the sub elite runner more than anybody else, but we don't tend to discuss the guy who went from being a 2:43 marathoner to 2:28 because nobody really cares other than his local friends.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
zoomzoomzoom wrote:
there is no foam invented yet that gives you back more than 1% in running economy over another
and carbon PLATE is another level with another 1% from stiffness
but vaporfly is not just a flat plate at the insole or bottom of the shoe like a track spike plate that adds the benefit of stiffness
it's an engineered, shaped leaf-spring designed to return energy far beyond a foam and do it in a way that guarantees forward propulsion of that energy
there are now three studies that prove this, it can't be fairly doubted, and it's shown that some people don't just get 4% economy improvement BEYOND the already fastest shoes on the market, some people get 6% depending on their form
even more, runner weight no longer matters to a degree because the carbon spring does not bottom out like a conventional shoe
for quick reference, every 1% at 2:30 pace is 1.5 minutes
do you think it's a level playing field for someone to have a SIX minute advantage regardless if they both had the same ability in conventional shoes?
So Kipchoge is really a 2:07 runner? Ridiculous!
Never heard Geb mention his shoes were better than his predicessors when he set his world record. Or the rock hard tracks. He refused to double on thrm but never mentioned the time advantage.
Did he ever get blood tested in Ethiopia?
Records are relative to the era it was set and the technology existing in that era. As a result they are bound to improve as technology get better. So though World Records are important, in themselves, they do not make an athlete the best of that era. In addition to a world record, dominance should be considered. Geb broke the marathon world record twice but he was not dominant. You have to win either Olympics marathon or a world championship marathon gold medal and win either New York marathon or London marathon at least three times in order to be considered a great marathoner. Geb only had the world records but never won London, New York nor Olympics or world championship. So in as far as the discussion is concerned, Geb's greatness(GOAT) is on the track because he achieved everything there. Had at least 27 World Records to his name. Bekele is second GOAT on the track but GOAT in cross country. Tadese is GOAT(so far) in the half marathon distance. Kipchoge is GOAT in marathon - longest winning streak(elite athletes category) in the modern era, including 3 London titles, Olympics gold and the World Record.
Even if the Iaaf tries to make world record conditions similar, for instance, do it in an indoor facility and have athletes run barefeet or with exactly similar shoe make- type, it will not succeed because there are things like nutrition which has changed and will keep changing.
zoomzoomzoom wrote:
there is no foam invented yet that gives you back more than 1% in running economy over another
and carbon PLATE is another level with another 1% from stiffness
but vaporfly is not just a flat plate at the insole or bottom of the shoe like a track spike plate that adds the benefit of stiffness
it's an engineered, shaped leaf-spring designed to return energy far beyond a foam and do it in a way that guarantees forward propulsion of that energy
there are now three studies that prove this, it can't be fairly doubted, and it's shown that some people don't just get 4% economy improvement BEYOND the already fastest shoes on the market, some people get 6% depending on their form
even more, runner weight no longer matters to a degree because the carbon spring does not bottom out like a conventional shoe
for quick reference, every 1% at 2:30 pace is 1.5 minutes
do you think it's a level playing field for someone to have a SIX minute advantage regardless if they both had the same ability in conventional shoes?
4% economy improvement does not equal 4% performance improvement. ffs how can people not understand this.
It is not a leaf spring either
Weight doesn't matter anymore you say? I think you would would fit well over on the flat earth thread.
This from a website that thinks we should compare times from different xc courses in different weather conditions?
The Zoom Katana (Tadese's half-marathon shoe) and Zoom Streak 3 were phenomenal shoes for their time, just as the Vaporfly 4% is today. In 10 years, we will look back and see the Vaporfly 4% as a slow shoe. We are constantly progressing, so a world record should not include an asterisk. As long as their is no change to internal physiology, we really shouldn't care. The Adios Boost and Sub 2 are very comparable shoes too.