Ohio State High School Cross country meet postponed a week....

They need to change location of meet, lot of aspects wrong with it. Two way road to get in or out, hair pin turn on course, parking and course itself obviously a problem when it rains, etc. Is there a park or golf course in the central Ohio area that could hold it?

1) You are just not correct that this could have been moved elsewhere given the extremely short time frame.

2) They could not have let you know on Sunday or Monday because at that point they didn't know how much it would have rained by Thursday at 1 p.m. and then with a very good idea that it would continue to rain through Saturday. And, your hyperbole detracts from your point. No one has said the city of Columbus is flooding, only that with steady rain all week with no let up through Saturday makes that one venue impossible to use. And, in Central Ohio, it HAS rained that much. I have been back in Central Ohio now for 20 years, and I have never seen an unrelenting week of rain as we have had this week.

3) I DO agree with you that it would be good if from now on it is no longer at National Trail Raceway, but they have sought another venue for years now and have not located one.

4) I suggest you volunteer your time to help them come up with a contingency plan. Good luck. What happens then if the contingency plan is also affect either in the same way or a different way? Should there be a third option? A fourth? How about 5?

5) You are allowing your disappointment to cloud rational thinking on this.

changes wrote:

They need to change location of meet, lot of aspects wrong with it. Two way road to get in or out, hair pin turn on course, parking and course itself obviously a problem when it rains, etc. Is there a park or golf course in the central Ohio area that could hold it?

I agree the venue is not ideal. They have looked for other locations for years now. It is not easy at all. Has to have enough parking. Has to be accessible by a ton of traffic both in and out (this is why Cedarville is a thumbs down). Parks don't typically have the kind of parking needed. I don't know of a single one in the state of Ohio that would be able to handle it. Most golf courses (many have) would balk at that many runners and spectators on their course, and they don't have the parking to handle it anyway.

This postponement may help with the urgency. Hopefully something can be done for next year.

I disagree

4) Not being able to plan for all eventualities does not mean you shouldn't plan for some. There should have been a back up plan. No need for a 3rd, etc. More people would have understood if the back up venue was also compromised.

Hence,

1) There should have been a venue in place that could have been moved too in a short time frame.

Flagpole wrote:

5) You are allowing your disappointment to cloud rational thinking on this.

I will 100% concede that I am disappointed.

I will also concede that moving the meet would be a huge task.

But still, this is not the best contingency plan. For an event like this, there should be a back-up course, and yes, if the back-up plan was also ruined for some reason, I would not be upset, I would understand that much more.

Hopefully, this will lead to future changes, including a better contingency plan as well as maybe even moving the course away from NTR. This is only the 8th year the meet has been held here, we can't have something like this happen even 10 years.

Supertramp wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

5) You are allowing your disappointment to cloud rational thinking on this.

I will 100% concede that I am disappointed.

I will also concede that moving the meet would be a huge task.

But still, this is not the best contingency plan. For an event like this, there should be a back-up course, and yes, if the back-up plan was also ruined for some reason, I would not be upset, I would understand that much more.

Hopefully, this will lead to future changes, including a better contingency plan as well as maybe even moving the course away from NTR. This is only the 8th year the meet has been held here, we can't have something like this happen even 10 years.

Your concessions show that you are on the way to being fully right, but you aren't quite there yet with the unreasonable expectation of a backup course at the ready.

I am sorry for your disappointment. When my kids were running in the state meet, I would have been disappointed too if it got pushed back a week, and that would have really bothered one of my kids. There just are not always reasonable things that can be put in place to rid us of all disappointment.

We can agree that moving from National Trail Raceway would be the best idea ultimately...unless they pave the parking areas and change the course a little to take away any hairpin turns.

Paving the parking would be wise. I'm just not sure who you can fit a significantly better course in that place.

My biggest disappointment is all the ripple effects:

Most athletes and coaches will just have an extra week to train. That doesn't bother me that much, inconvenient absolutely, but if every fan, parent, coach and spectator is free the next weekend, then who cares. From a pure competitive standpoint, all things aside, I thing the absolute toughest teams and individuals (mentally and physically) will be the most successful this year more than other years, and I admit that is slightly exciting despite the chaos.

Also, NXR is a disappointment as well, but if this was a perfect solution aside from NXR, that wouldn't bother me that much. Hugely disappointing for teams with this aspirations, to be sure. But at the end of the day, OHSAA is not responsible for NXR. And winning your State should be more important than NXR/NXN anyways.

But between all 120 teams, plus all of the individuals (close to 1,000 athletes) I am certain at least one, likely several, are no longer able to compete because of the date change. (Weddings, funerals, tests, trips, whatever) On top of that, I am sure there are several coaches who are no longer able to be there. Also, parents and family members who can no longer make it to the meet. (Think about family perhaps flying into town from out of state.)

In addition, teams with very limited budgets may have a hard time adjusting all of the logistics. I know of a small school that struggled to raise funds through a "Go Fund Me" page to help them go to State. Some teams can't afford uniforms, can you imagine the mess this would cause for a program with limited funding?

That is why I am most disappointed, and that is why I cannot concede that there is not a better alternative. I understand it would be tremendous work and a tremendous mess to move the meet to another location. But the best choice for the athletes would have been to run the race somewhere, anywhere, at the same time and day. I also think the Ohio CC/Track community would have come together in waves of volunteer support to help make this happen last minute if they decided to move venues.

Again, hopefully lessons are learned for the future from this.

Weather Sucks wrote:

I disagree

4) Not being able to plan for all eventualities does not mean you shouldn't plan for some. There should have been a back up plan. No need for a 3rd, etc. More people would have understood if the back up venue was also compromised.

Hence,

1) There should have been a venue in place that could have been moved too in a short time frame.

You would be wrong then. I suggest you volunteer your time to find such a second site that would be at the ready. Does OHSAA pay that second site to stand ready every year just in case it is needed? I guess you need to do that for all the district and regional meets too if you are to have any integrity.

This is an unreasonable and ridiculous expectation on your part.

Well, in Massachusetts they have moved an invite back a day because of rain, not flooding, just rain. The state association has been doing this more often as time goes on, not flooding, just rain. They used to sell shirts at XC meets that said, all weather, all conditions, not anymore. What has happened to XC?

mass hole wrote:

Well, in Massachusetts they have moved an invite back a day because of rain, not flooding, just rain. The state association has been doing this more often as time goes on, not flooding, just rain. They used to sell shirts at XC meets that said, all weather, all conditions, not anymore. What has happened to XC?

Not sure what the deal in Massachusetts is, but in this particular case in Ohio, the venue is just not ready to be used tomorrow, and pretty much it has to do with the parking. It is just not possible. Kids will run in the rain. A meet earlier this season at Watkins Memorial high School had puddles almost up to the knees of some runners with rain continuing to come down. Put the runners in all kinds of conditions unless it is really unsafe, but again, in this case in Ohio, it has to do with there not being any available parking for spectators. I do not know what they will do if it doesn't all dry up by next weekend.

Flagpole wrote:

A meet earlier this season at Watkins Memorial high School had puddles almost up to the knees of some runners with rain continuing to come down.

Puddles...right. They ran in a lake, brother.

With the addition of the ten at large bids for individuals Nike implemented for NXN this year, if they did move Ohio to the south I would imagine they could take advantage of this process to let more individuals in from that region.

Ashland Freer Field could handle it. There is parking on site and the HS, MS, and University has tons of parking, too, which are right around the corner, almost connected to the site. You could easily shuttle people around. There are no grandstands, but the course is very spectator friendly. And, it's right off of I71. Centrally located, too.

Jim, great topic.

I'm big on race simulation. Was just discussing with my sister and she's going with the following after some back and forth -

400m getting out like in a race

3-4 x 800m at race pace with 2-3 min rest

400m closing like finishing race

We'll see how it goes!

Flagpole wrote:

You would be wrong then. I suggest you volunteer your time to find such a second site that would be at the ready. Does OHSAA pay that second site to stand ready every year just in case it is needed? I guess you need to do that for all the district and regional meets too if you are to have any integrity.

This is an unreasonable and ridiculous expectation on your part.

It's not unreasonable to have a backup plan to avoid the helter-skelter. That's their job - plan an event with a contingency.

Part of the issue, heck perhaps the biggest issue, is having all three divisions running on the same day. This puts the crowds into 5 digits, and it vastly reduces the number of viable options. Why not run the event over two days, with Div 1 on the first day (say, Friday), and Div 2/3 on the second day (Saturday)?

Football would never put all of their finals games at one location, on one day. Neither would basketball. Or wrestling. And of course, they don't. Those competitions take place over multiple days, and in the case of football, at multiple locales.

So why not spread this out over two days, consider a range of locations, and settle on one that would accommodate two days of competition (smaller crowds each day)?

THEN, having a backup plan isn't so "unrealistic" or "ridiculous", and you're not calling people's integrity into question.

Been going to OHSSA XC meetings for about 2 decades, never heard/seen Supertramp wanting to discuss alternate race sites for XC state championship. Hindsight is 20/20.

Drove by this week to get a visual of the course (not run) and it is a mess. It would have been a muddy course (not as bad as Watkins) but absolutley impossible for parking. This is a rented venue and they make the call about allowing their grounds to be destroyed.

All Ohio pulled out of Methesco (near OWU) for same reasons. Parking was destroying their grounds (and the local golf course got greedy with rental $$) The event needs to be centralized in fairness to travel for all schools and the raceway fit the bill at the time. I personally hate the course.

What is the backup plan for NCAA D1 at Madison this year, with 2 days notice?

Great to hear from the Twins! It is amazing that if Mark would not have been spiked, and not dropped out, what the team score would have been. Still remember warming down with Todd after the NCAA track meet qualifying round - must have been our Junior year in Baton Rouge when Syndee ran 3:35 in the finals, solo.

Question that still follows - what workouts to do over the next 8 days. One would have to believe, that many Ohio coaches are considering options, and what is best for their team (s).

One thought on the 3-4x800 with 2-3 mins rest. When I was treadmill tested through the Olympic committee by the late Dr. David Martin (1989-1997), he would start a huge race line finish clock the moment I jumped off the treadmill with exhaustion. Usually in the 21 or 22nd minute, at 10-12% grade/6 min mile pace would do me in. He would start the clock, and then at exactly 5 minutes, take blood out of my arm. "This is when your lactic acid peaks after a hard interval/effort." He continued, "If you know this, how can you adjust your training, to train smarter than the rest of the world?" Usually when I jumped off the treadmill, my lactic acid was between 103-109%. But when the blood work came back from Grady Memorial hospital in Atlanta, one time I was 173%.... my head was swimming and think I had a headache. My coach, Mike Durkin had me run 2x800 (2 lap jog) hard about 2-2.5 weeks before a World or Olympic final. We changed from 2 laps, to 5 minutes after learning this.

However, this is the final week of before the State meet, and zero reason to run "Hard" intervals. It is more maintenance. I like Al Carius at North Central college approach (he has won over 50 NCAA titles, D3). The last week before the NCAA's, he had the athletes on Monday run 3 miles, with the last mile pick up, and last 800 more increase in tempo. Then stop, water, a few strides, and yes, 1x800 at race pace. Jog back to school. I changed this to 1x800, but 2 x 50 meter pick ups, to get gear change. For my body, I found that to get to a peak, at the right time of the season, changing gears in practice over a 3-4 week period prior to a Championship race, and strides (4x100, or 6x100, 10x100, etc) was the best way to get the peak.

One coach asked me what I would recommend on Monday, and decided based upon the mileage they were putting in, to type 2x800 (change of pace) intervals for November 5th:

Warm up: 10 m’s vf pace and then continue with:

Tempo run: 4 m’s with last :90 m’s pick up faster tempo {total 14 m’s}

Jog for 4 m’s before - drills, water, stretching

Intervals: 2x800 (4 mins recovery between)

1st 800 – change of pace: do 2 x 50 yard pick ups within the 800

2nd 800 – change of pace: do 2 x 50 yard pick ups within the 800

6 m’s Warm down and stretching

If the course is a faster, flatter course, and you have been working on speed, maybe this workout that I had Kathy Kroeger run the Saturday, a week before she won Footlocker as a Sophomore from Tennessee:

15 m's (mins) warm up, 6 strides

2x200 fresh, relaxed, as part of the warm up (100 between intervals, 400 between sets)

2x800 (4 mins)

1st one, 400 fresh, 200 good, 200 f (good is faster than f)

2nd one, 300f, 200 g, 300 f

2x150 build ups (150 between)

.5 mile warm down at 7:00 pace/mile

She wrote back:

"felt strong from the start. wow! working hard on the 800's, but I was really surprised with that fast of a time. Thinking OK, I got to do this again after the first one. Wow - another fast time! Felt strong on the build ups"

She ran 2:32 for the first 800 and 2:29 on the 2nd. I do not remember if she ran these on the track or grass, as it was 2007 or 2008.... but based upon the times, I would guess the track.

She ran 45 mins (I would have cut this back to 35 mins today), and said "Legs a little sore. Finished strong."

Then some lighter intervals (3x:40, 3x:20, 2x:40) on Monday, and a .5 mile warm down at 7:00 pace

js

lkjkj wrote:

Jim, great topic.

I'm big on race simulation. Was just discussing with my sister and she's going with the following after some back and forth -

400m getting out like in a race

3-4 x 800m at race pace with 2-3 min rest

400m closing like finishing race

We'll see how it goes!

Yes, great post!

Lets get back on topic of how you would adjust training and workouts.

I'm thinking about trying the 5x18 workout.

Is this really the STATE CHAMPIONSHIP course for Ohio?

https://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sports/Cross%20Country/CCstatecoursemap.pdf

It looks like a terrible course, especially for such an important meet. I've been to Ohio several times and have been extremely underwhelmed each time but they have to have a better place to run than this...