Get from 3:09 to sub-3 by spring?

Add strides

You didn't improve a lot from fall '17 to spring '18. Why not? Do you have crummy winter weather that makes training difficult? If so, it might make mores sense to do a spring 10K/HM and target an early fall marathon (if getting your BQ in time for registering next fall is your goal).

What would you say is the key workout progression in the Pfitzinger 12/70 plan? How did it go this last time?

I actually wouldn't be surprised if there's no cutoff next year given the lowering of the standards.

I don't have any advice - I'm in the same age group and I missed Boston with a 3:12 this year. Going to be shooting for pretty close to 3-flat or sub-3 next year. I have a lot of room for improvement in terms of mileage as I only averaged 45 mpw during this past cycle. But whether I can actually get the miles in... that's the question.

my 2c wrote:

You didn't improve a lot from fall '17 to spring '18. Why not? Do you have crummy winter weather that makes training difficult?

Health, really.

I was laid up with the flu for a few days in February, which set me back.

Then I twice had to battle hamstring issues, including a few days into my taper.

I braved the winter weather to train, although it certainly makes it more difficult and might have contributed to the hamstring issues. I'll go on the treadmill, which I have in my basement, when it gets too bad outside.

Instead of adding 1 mile per day I'd slowly build up to 2 miles more per day. 70 vs 85 is a pretty big jump and you should see improvement because of it.

my 2c wrote:

You didn't improve a lot from fall '17 to spring '18. Why not? Do you have crummy winter weather that makes training difficult? If so, it might make mores sense to do a spring 10K/HM and target an early fall marathon (if getting your BQ in time for registering next fall is your goal).

What would you say is the key workout progression in the Pfitzinger 12/70 plan? How did it go this last time?

As far as an early fall marathon, I just worry about heat on those dates. I suppose if there was something in early September pretty far north into Wisconsin or Michigan.

I think the key workout for me in the Pfitzinger plan were the ones where you'd do 5-6 miles at 8K to HM pace during the course of a 12-mile run. I did mine at 6:40.

I also challenged myself on two or three of what were scheduled as 6-mile recovery runs to treat them as 10K time trials instead. A few weeks before my race I nailed 39:26, my first time ever under 40 minutes at the 10K distance. That was a big confidence booster.

If you've been using the same plan and doing essentially the same training for 2+ years, then you should consider switching it up somehow. We can stagnate (sometimes just mentally) if the training doesn't evolve. What about trying someone else's training plan?

Do some self-reflection or look back at logs & races. Be honest with yourself about your strengths & weaknesses. Train to improve your weaknesses. Mileage volume isn't always the answer. Maybe you would do better with longer long runs, or maybe with more intermediate runs (12-14 miles)? Maybe you need to run longer continuous temp type stuff? Consider hiring a coach.

To point is, the plan is a guideline. Look at it, and figure out where you can tweak it. Everybody here will have an opinion, but trying something different is the only way to know for sure.

you replaced a recovery run with an all out time trial? i'm so confused. harder isn't always better. you didn't follow Pfitz.

is your goal to guarantee qualification for Boston 2020, or is your goal sub 3? if your goal is Boston, why force sub 3? you probably only need like 2 minutes for a guarantee, but you're probably already fine with the new standards. let sub 3 be a long term goal. it's not going anywhere.

besides, your training should guide your goals anyway. your goals shouldn't guide your training.

english professer wrote:

you replaced a recovery run with an all out time trial? i'm so confused. harder isn't always better. you didn't follow Pfitz.

is your goal to guarantee qualification for Boston 2020, or is your goal sub 3? if your goal is Boston, why force sub 3? you probably only need like 2 minutes for a guarantee, but you're probably already fine with the new standards. let sub 3 be a long term goal. it's not going anywhere.

besides, your training should guide your goals anyway. your goals shouldn't guide your training.

I think I replaced it twice, but I figured I was probably OK because I didn't do strides, and it worked out.

I can't imagine that -0:22 will be enough to get in under the new standards. That's only 30 seconds less than this year's qualifying cutoff, right?

if you think a 10k time trial is interchangable with strides, you don't understand strides.

the point still remains that shooting for PR-10min isn't really necessary or likely wise if your primary goal is Boston 2020.

IndyJ wrote:

This month I ran 3:09:38, officially a BQ for my age group (40-44 male) at -0:22, but unlikely to get me into the race, given the current trend.

My last four marathons I've gone 3:40 (fall '16), 3:17 (fall '17), 3:17 (spring '18), and then 3:09.

I ran this marathon on Pfitzinger's 12-week, 70-plus plan, minus the strides.

Is it realistic to aim for sub-3 this spring? I was thinking about adding a mile a day to his 24-week program and, of course, pushing the paces on the various speed workouts.

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated, as well.

Me: 41, male.

In what was my second marathon, I just ran 2:54 using the same Pftiz-70 plan, but I did more like 16 weeks of the plan, with some mods. I did not do the strides.

My experience, which you may or may not find helpful:

-My best 5K in the last year was exactly 17-flat (heart-breaker).

-Most of my intervals were run, depending on the day, at 5:30-5:45 pace (jog recovery at 7:30-8:15).

-Tempos 6:00-6:30.

-Endurance/everyday runs 7:15-7:35.

-Fewer easy days than in the plan (only when actually tired, usually the day after long run or workout) at 7:45-8:00.

-I ran all my 20-milers (x5) at 7:05-7:10.

-MP portion of MP runs at 6:35-6:50.

-A route will rolling hills at least once a week.

-Take always one day off; usually make the run before break-day a progression or add some tempo miles if feeling good after that week's workout (2 days before), but try not to go overboard. As the plan progressed I did this less.

5-6 miles at 8k pace hmmmm

Sounds like a good build up! with that 5k time I'm surprised you didn't shoot for a faster marathon though. I ran just under 17 this cycle and am training for a 2:45 M. Can't say my training differed all that much (little quicker tempos, quicker or slower long runs)

I'm trying to get there. I think I just need a few more cycles to build the foundation.

I'd say you have a good shot at it!

RunnerSam's much higher volume cannot be discounted when converting 5k times to marathon targets.

Add the strides (they're far more important than you think), extend the duration of the training (you're already doing that, doubling the length of the program).

Don't push the pace on your assigned paces for speed workouts, hit your times. If you feel comfortable let a little lose towards the last 1/3 of the workout, that's better than killing the entire workout and losing the purpose of it. Don't change what's meant to be an MP session into a hammerfest.

Mixing up the workouts / changing up the order of workouts is fine, it is not the same as changing the intended purpose of the workout. Doing those 10K time trials on recovery days, while it sounds cool and could be a confidence booster in the sense that you ran a fast time on tired legs, its pretty dumb.

Take your Vit-C in the winter and maybe back off the volume and/or intensity in the winter if you are prone to sickness and injury in the colder weather.

Get a couple of longer runs in there compared to what you've been doing. I honestly think that alone, maybe getting to 75 at most, is plenty for you to come back and hit sub-3. Of course, if you've been at 70 for all the past marathons you've set / been at 70 for longer than 6 months, then going up to 80/85 is the better bet.

I followed the pfitz 70 mpw plan to hit a 2:54 back in 2012. I think it was the 12 week version and I adapted it when necessary. It worked but I didn't use it in my next marathons years later because I don't use a rigid schedule anymore. the basic principles of my training are still the same as pfitz.

you don't need to change very much of those 12 or 18 weeks although adding 10 mpw would be a great change to make. however, the most important change is what you do between today and the start of your 12-18 week training plan. get fit now so you can get even fitter later.

sub 3 could be possible by next spring but sub-7:00/mi might be a smarter goal for now.

one more thing...you can't just go replacing easy runs with time trials. pfitz allows plenty of days to get in a hard run and you shouldn't need to supplement his plan unless you're just adding some miles here and there. you really should be doing the strides though as they serve a purpose just like every other workout. they may seem unimportant but every decent marathoner is doing strides regularly throughout the year.

Thanks for all the tremendous advice. I'm always apprehensive, especially being a bit of a slow compared to most of the people who post here. But I started off my marathon journey with a 5:05 followed by a 4:59, so breaking 3 hours would be something that was once beyond my wildest imagination, just as an official BQ time was until a few days ago.

I'm thinking that I'll probably hold off and do an early September marathon, and maybe skip the spring this time around. I've gone fall 2017-spring 2018-fall 2018 right now, and it would be nice to use the winter to just sustain a huge base and get my body into better condition overall, i.e. lower my body fat. (I probably have been carrying 5-10 extra pounds at 5-foot-9, 155 pounds.) It would be nice to be able to do that first, train specifically for a marathon second.

I was going to ask about weight. If you think you're 5-10 pounds overweight that is huge! That is a few minutes off the marathon right there. Dial in the diet and let those pounds come off slowly but steadily. And you might be able to go lower depending on your natural build. I'm about 155 and I'm 6'1". I was a few pounds lighter than that for my last marathon.

And I would echo what many others have said. Consider trying a new program. Pfitz is quite good, and tons of people PR off that, as you have already done, but maybe it's time to try something like a modified Hanson's plan or Jack Daniels or, as others do, making your own plan based on sound marathoning principles (Brad Hudson's Run Faster book is a nice help for this).

Also, add the things you're not doing. Strides is obviously one. Hit up the strides all winter long. Maybe some hill work? Maybe a block of V02 type training before going into the cycle, rather than at the end, like the Pfitz programs have. Add some strength stuff. Hamstring injuries are a sign that things are perhaps weak/overstrained. Do you do any core/lunge/weight work to supplement your running?

Taking 9 minutes off at the times you're running is big but also doable. But with the number of cycles you've got in you the last few years (and it sounds like fairly decent mileage), it could be harder to grab those minutes.

Good luck. I've enjoyed seeing all your progress from your other posts. Keep up the hard work.