Is my coach excessively overtraining my XC team

Ok, if a workout is too hard, what do you do? You either shorten it or you run it a little slower. I doubt the coach here wants the OP to fry his/her self racing impossible workouts. And sometimes workouts aren't stated with scientific precision. I would guess that, unless this 2 x 10min at 5k pace is intended to simulate a race, this workout isn't really meant to be run at 5k pace.

And yes, I did run in HS and I raced most of the workouts. Knowing more now I recommend against training that way. I realize that if you are on the varsity/JV bubble that it's hard not to race workouts in an effort to impress the coach but you have to pick you battles. Race the last hard workout before the coach makes the decision on who runs the big races if you have to. Definitely don't race them all.

Like Really Bro wrote:

start here wrote:

For most HS athletes, it's too much volume, and too frequently.

a) The 2x1600-1200-800 workout seems solid, but fairly high volume. Doable with enough rest.

Dude, just no. You have no idea what "volume" means. OP is being overworked, but definitely not by "volume".

I don’t think you know what volume means

As rough as workouts may be to OP, OP does not have a choice. I find it interesting that posters, most likely in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's & 60's are suggesting OP, most likely age 14, 15, 16 or 17 disobey the coach. Are there soccer, swimming or Am. football versions of letsrun? Are the posters on soccer, swimming and Am. football sites telling young soccer players, young swimmers and young Am. football players to give less than what their coaches are asking in practice? I think posters on letsrun, especially posters who have been there should tell OP to stay positive. It kept me positive to know while I was in h.s. a sub-4:10 one mile h.s. runner who graduated few years before I was on team did the exact same workouts with same coach. OP will come out the other side ok.

High School? College? Professional? Your age? Running experience? PB's?

This is very important information to know is order to give the correct advice.

High School junior with a 17:38 5k pr as the team's 5th best runner. Many of our runners have dropped from these workouts and the only tips my coach gives us is "go faster" or "get out faster". This makes me embarrassed as she has very little idea how to coach a high school team. Furthermore, we only run about 35-40 mpw so with these workouts were are running a quarter of our mileage at race pace or faster which is very concerning for me.

God2 wrote:

Okay so my coach has been giving us insane workouts on a weekly basis. We had a workout last wednesday which was 2(1600-1200-800) at 5k race pace on a somewhat hilly course. Then on friday, she gave us a 2x10 min workout at 5k race pace with only 3-4 min rest and today she gave us a 4X1 mile workout at approximately our 3k-4k race pace with 3 min rest. Furthermore, she makes us do 20-30 min of ab exercises with massive numbers of reps such as 60 v-ups, 40 push-ups, and 200m of lunges on an almost daily basis. Are these workouts insane?

if bekele did the 2 x 10 mins at his peak when he got the 5k World Record, he would have done:

2.46 miles @ 4:03 pace in 10 minutes.

TWICE.

that's an insanity sandwich workout. this about his 2 mile split times.....

*think [about his 2 mile split times...]

Seems like too much fast-paced work.

I ran X-C decades ago and we did a lot of fast-paced work then. In hindsight, I feel that too much of that work doesn't help develop an athlete over the long term. I've really appreciated Coach Jay Johnson's work over at Highschoolrunningcoach.com. His mission is to help high school coaches learn how to train athletes with the long view in mind, developing them one step at a time and not burn them out. Maybe it could be a good resource for your coach.

Yes. Take your easy days so easy it’s a a joke and go hide in the school or run alone so you recover appropriately . We used to hide from coach on easy days because we had to recover and jog just 20 minutes max.... turned out to be pretty damn good team that was one of the best in the country. Easy hard easy hard easy hard

REDICULO!!!! wrote:

cart 4 horse wrote:

Coaches should decide who will or won't race varsity based on their times in races, not rewarding workout heroes.

^^^true

And 4x1600 @3k pace is REDICULO!!! At least your team will have an impressive looking training log.

4x1600 @ 3k pace (I am assuming around 5 mins rest) is not ridiculous. It is certainly a very difficult workout, and it should only be done by people with a strong aerobic engine (Juniors in HS and older). It is a workout that I have done and watched many other people do.

However, for XC, that’s not the right type of workout. They should be focusing on 5k pace. It is certainly good to touch below 5k pace, but not for a workout as hard as the one described, since it’s kind of a waste because you’d have to recover for a few days and wouldn’t get much as much benefit because you aren’t working at 5k pace.

It would be better to run 4x1600 at 5k pace with a minute or so less rest. Which is a similarly hard workout, but better prepares you for the 5k. This type of session should probably be done only once or twice during a season and should be worked around important races.

You must have a very impressive training log that shows what you could have been capable of on race day!

God2 wrote:

Then on friday, she gave us a 2x10 min workout at 5k race pace with only 3-4 min rest

lol wut

That may be one of the worst workout designs I've ever seen.

put a little math on it wrote:

God2 wrote:

Okay so my coach has been giving us insane workouts on a weekly basis. We had a workout last wednesday which was 2(1600-1200-800) at 5k race pace on a somewhat hilly course. Then on friday, she gave us a 2x10 min workout at 5k race pace with only 3-4 min rest and today she gave us a 4X1 mile workout at approximately our 3k-4k race pace with 3 min rest. Furthermore, she makes us do 20-30 min of ab exercises with massive numbers of reps such as 60 v-ups, 40 push-ups, and 200m of lunges on an almost daily basis. Are these workouts insane?

if bekele did the 2 x 10 mins at his peak when he got the 5k World Record, he would have done:

2.46 miles @ 4:03 pace in 10 minutes.

TWICE.

that's an insanity sandwich workout. this about his 2 mile split times.....

The reason for the 10 minute interval length is that it’s about 3k in distance for a 16:30-17:00 5k runner. 6k worth of volume in a workout run at 5k pace is not unheard of. It is more challenging because of the length of the interval, but if Bekele in WR shape did 2x3k in 7:36 avg, I would believe that to be possible.

Yep, that’s why our program has a great tradition of success. That’s a workout in many of our logs. Again to reiterate, it’s not a good idea for a team that races at least once a week for a whole season. But if you’re only running 4 or so races before you need to peak, you need hard workouts like those sprinkled in. Max of 2 per season, they are always the focus session of an otherwise easier week without a race, and you’re given ample time to recover.

For example, the other quality session we might do during that week was a 4 mile tempo run with 4x300 @ mile pace afterwards. That would be done on Tuesday, then we’d have an easy day Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Main workout Saturday and then an abbreviated long run on Sunday (if you do 16 normally you’d be capped at 14). The following would normally be a race and we would do an easier workout on Wednesday, which would be more race specific. Maybe 5x1k w/ 3:00 jog recovery starting slower than 5k and ending at 5k or slightly faster if feeling good.

What are you smoking wrote:

put a little math on it wrote:

if bekele did the 2 x 10 mins at his peak when he got the 5k World Record, he would have done:

2.46 miles @ 4:03 pace in 10 minutes.

TWICE.

that's an insanity sandwich workout. this about his 2 mile split times.....

The reason for the 10 minute interval length is that it’s about 3k in distance for a 16:30-17:00 5k runner. 6k worth of volume in a workout run at 5k pace is not unheard of. It is more challenging because of the length of the interval, but if Bekele in WR shape did 2x3k in 7:36 avg, I would believe that to be possible.

what if they're slower than 16:30-17:00, or are a female?! likely both for this thread

Yep, that’s why our program has a great tradition of success. That’s a workout in many of our logs. Again to reiterate, it’s not a good idea for a team that races at least once a week for a whole season. But if you’re only running 4 or so races before you need to peak, you need hard workouts like those sprinkled in. Max of 2 per season, they are always the focus session of an otherwise easier week without a race, and you’re given ample time to recover.

For example, the other quality session we might do during that week was a 4 mile tempo run with 4x300 @ mile pace afterwards. That would be done on Tuesday, then we’d have an easy day Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Main workout Saturday and then an abbreviated long run on Sunday (if you do 16 normally you’d be capped at 14). The following would normally be a race and we would do an easier workout on Wednesday, which would be more race specific. Maybe 5x1k w/ 3:00 jog recovery starting slower than 5k and ending at 5k or slightly faster if feeling good.

what are you smoking RE wrote:

What are you smoking wrote:

The reason for the 10 minute interval length is that it’s about 3k in distance for a 16:30-17:00 5k runner. 6k worth of volume in a workout run at 5k pace is not unheard of. It is more challenging because of the length of the interval, but if Bekele in WR shape did 2x3k in 7:36 avg, I would believe that to be possible.

what if they're slower than 16:30-17:00, or are a female?! likely both for this thread

Well then hopefully the coach adjusts the workout. OP did not mention anyone else. It’s very likely their coach has the boys varsity doing these types of workouts and the JV/girls doing a lesser session. The girls team might have a completely different coach. Who knows? My point is for a group of people around that skill level, that would be a tough, but doable workout.

cart 4 horse wrote:

Coaches should decide who will or won't race varsity based on their times in races, not rewarding workout heroes.

That depends.

For example lets say an athlete pulls out of a hard early season workout to have fresh legs for a September XC race. Then the kid beats their teammate in that race who did the workout. This keeps happening leading up to when you have to make a decision. Now you are resting them for the championship meets and that kid is not improving the way the others around them are because they never developed. The kid you left home or as an alternate would have finished ahead of them when it counts.

It happens more than you think and most of the time it's part of the athlete's plan. If you have coached for a while you have seen this.

Maybe another easy day in between and everything is fine, pretty sure the 5k pace runs actually supose to be at 10k pace , but the kids will do it at almost 5k pace anyway. So just do easy days easy and dont be a pus**y.