Or, maybe, 2:1x pace isn't that hard for someone probably able to pop a 2:09 on a good day.
Or, maybe, 2:1x pace isn't that hard for someone probably able to pop a 2:09 on a good day.
Most of his marathons are at a relatively slow pace compared to his bests. He doesn’t really seem to kill himself in training, his quality is probably mostly from races. He only works out once a day I believe. A lot of his races probably aren’t much harder on the body than some of the crazy workouts a lot of elites do, he just does them for the public to see
rojo wrote:
This has to be one of the dumbest posts I've ever read.
You think a 2:08 guy running nearly 2:16 is a sign he's doping?
No.
1) He's stockier than other runners so he holds up better in the fold.
2) He's used to being in extreme pain as he races all the time (he passed out after his first 2:08).
3) He's used to awful conditions as he races so often + he ran in 1 degree temps this winter.
Not trying to be your typical Rojo hater as your usually pretty good at anchoring arguments to facts. Do you have any basis for #1 and #2? Does a stockier runner really recover better? Is there a material difference at the elite level in pain tolerance?
Neither seems likely but I'm especially skeptical of #2. It's hard for me to believe that any elite has an advantage in terms of pain tolerance. They're all tough and have gone through the ringer enough for that to be negligible. Also, fwiw Kawachi isn't the smoothest of runners which has to be considered in terms of your "holding up" argument.
Gorgey wrote:
Guy With Opinions wrote:
It's too bad that people like the OP reside on this planet. It's just a real shame
No. You are incorrect. I am not allleging that Kawauchi is doping, but for the intelligent, of course it would cross one’s mind. It is not a shame that intelligent people exist. Sometimes the toughest and courageous also dope.
If you aren't alleging it why bring it up? I think most of us would agree that it's almost impossible not to wonder whether anyone who does anything noteworthy might have been doping but that's no reason to insinuate that about an athlete who has given no reason to think other than performing really well. So what's your point?
Asian Roids wrote:
It certainly looks hella like Hellebuyck. Sorry apologists: too many races and zippo recovery time.
So did Kurtis and Stahl, maybe Michael Wardian. So basically anyone who does anything that seems beyond what you believe is possible should be suspect. And he's not taking "zippo" recovery time. He typically has something like a month between marathons and as someone else pointed out, most of those marathons are not maximal efforts. They really are workouts for him.
Bill Rodgers and Greg Meyer used to race every weekend, with a half dozen or more high quality marathons a year. Yuki has decided to forego chasing national teams and just wants to race all over the world. A 2:08 guy running 2:15 is doing a hard training run.
Flo’da boy wrote:
Most of his marathons are at a relatively slow pace compared to his bests. He doesn’t really seem to kill himself in training, his quality is probably mostly from races. He only works out once a day I believe. A lot of his races probably aren’t much harder on the body than some of the crazy workouts a lot of elites do, he just does them for the public to see
This ^^^ check out his training, very different from the elites... He just jogs during the week at 8:00 to 8:30 min/mile for up to 90 minutes and have his long runs and speed workouts combined into one race on a weekend, or a long trail run, if not racing... LOL
He is solid!!!
Your confirmation bias is showing: 30-degree temperatures, freezing rain, and headwinds of more than 25 miles per hour -- described by some elites as "running into a hurricane" -- don't make for a 2:15 training run.
HRE wrote:
A Japanese friend who knows the running world there very well told me that a Japanese athlete caught cheating would be subjected to a tremendous amount of shame and disgrace, much more than in most other countries. And if you assume that most doping is done to win money, there would be very little incentive for Japanese runners to risk that sort of disgrace. They all are employed, part time in most cases with full time salaries, and of course in Kawauchi's case, full time with a full time salary. And Japanese runners retain their jobs once they retire, going to full time work. The disgrace they would bring to their employer if they were caught cheating could cost them their job. You can never be sure what people you aren't with are doing, but if I had to choose one country whose athletes I believe are the cleanest in the world I think Japan would be my pick.
And as you point out, Kawauchi is not the first serial marathoner. Stahl and Kurtis raced marathons about as frequently, Cavin Woodward raced marathons and ultras about as frequently. I always found that the biggest part of recovering from a marathon was mental. Shorter had a line about how you needed to forget your last marathon before you could run your next one. Most of us kind of dread marathons and may need months to "forget" our last marathons while guys like Kawauchi, Stahl, etc., really seem(ed) to relish them and are probably ready to go both physically and mentally when the rest of us aren't mentally ready.
And in conclusion, it's really pathetic that we've reached a state where anyone who achieves anything beyond what's commonly expected is accused of cheating. As Rojo (I think) said here, a 2:08 guy running 2:15 seems questionable?
A very reasoned explanation and I've never speculated whether Kawauchi dopes but I wonder if refusing to enter the Japanese corporate running establishment could be construed as a way to avoid the shame that would redound to the employer. I believe Kawauchi is a civil servant who trains and lives as a semi-pro athlete.
Recovery is for losers wrote:
Your confirmation bias is showing: 30-degree temperatures, freezing rain, and headwinds of more than 25 miles per hour -- described by some elites as "running into a hurricane" -- don't make for a 2:15 training run.
No, that particular 2:15 was an all out effort. That's not the sort of conditions the races that he uses as training are normally run in.
In college, a friend of mine tried to buy EPO online from a guy in Japan. He never got the stuff; apparently it got held up in customs. But there you go, at least some Japanese have access to EPO for presumed PED use. I always laugh when people say the Japanese (or any large, diverse group of people-be it Americans, Kenyans, whatever) are “too honorable” to break the rules. Many are, some aren’t. The world isn’t black and white, kiddos.
Agreed. The idea of Japanese "purity" runs deep these days, as did the opposite -- scorn for the Japanese with such things as the Rape of Nanking and other mass-scale atrocities. The truth is we should all be judged individually. When judging this runner, his phantasmagoric results and Cinderella story reasonably subject him to scrutiny -- fan boys be damned.
Recovery is for losers wrote:
Your confirmation bias is showing: 30-degree temperatures, freezing rain, and headwinds of more than 25 miles per hour -- described by some elites as "running into a hurricane" -- don't make for a 2:15 training run.
I didn't mean yesterday's 2:15, just one of the many easier wins he's had, all the way up to 2:20.
And by extension, you are accusing not only Rodgers, Meyer and many other road journeymen of being dopers, but Steve Scott, John Walker, and Marcus O'Sullivan, for their ability to crank out 4:00 miles like they were pancakes at an IHOP.
But this is LRC, where no success goes unaccused.
Indeed, I remember the days when the Kenyans and Ethiopians were beyond reproach -- to question them was running heresy.
Yes, we should be judged individually., at least if we have to get judged But we should not have insinuations made that we're doing something unethical simply because we're better at something than some anonymous message board poster thinks we should be. It's unfair to the person against whom the insinuation is made and it further trashes the image of the sport for no reason. Judging Kawauchi on the basis of some similarity to Hellebyuck is NOT judging him individually.
If Japan had little or no out of competition testing, if there was evidence that their governing body was covering up negative test results, if Kawauchi, like Hellebyuck was in a training group with people who had a history of doping, etc. it might be different. There is nothing at all like that going on, just people who think that because what he's doing is "too good" there could be doing involved.
Kawauchi is just way beyond in mental toughness. A Steve Jones 2.0 type.
The base he has from the many marathons at 209-215 pace is money in the bank for him. He very well could run 205-206 or better. Would have been nice to see him break the japanese record if he opted to pursue it and went into the Tokyo race well rested.
HRE wrote:
Gorgey wrote:
No. You are incorrect. I am not allleging that Kawauchi is doping, but for the intelligent, of course it would cross one’s mind. It is not a shame that intelligent people exist. Sometimes the toughest and courageous also dope.
If you aren't alleging it why bring it up? I think most of us would agree that it's almost impossible not to wonder whether anyone who does anything noteworthy might have been doping but that's no reason to insinuate that about an athlete who has given no reason to think other than performing really well. So what's your point?
I am not the one who brought it up. IF you are not smart enough to understand my point, and it appears you are not, that is not my problem. The previous clown said it is a shame that people like the OP exist on this planet. I simply refuted that assertion by stating that it is not a shame that intelligent people such as myself exist, and I may wonder if the Japanese runner is doping, and there is no shame in my doing so, even though I would not have started a thread on it. I hope you have the requisite cognition to comprehend this.
Recovery is for losers wrote:
Check these eye-popping stats:
"At just 30 years old, Yuki Kawauchi is in a distance running category of his own. As of January 1, he has run the most sub-2:20 marathons of anyone, ever—76. He’s also run the most sub-2:12 marathons of anyone, ever—25. Kawauchi—one guy—has run more sub-2:10 marathons since 2011 than the whole United States put together. Kawauchi’s best time for 2017—2:09:18—was two seconds faster than the fastest marathon of the year by any U.S. man, which would be Galen Rupp, who ran a career best of 2:09:20 in Chicago. Rupp, like most athletes at that level, ran two marathons in 2017. Kawauchi ran 12."
Yeah, and in the same article Kawauchi explains that he does an ultralong jog - oh the horror - on the weekend. And explains he can because he only trains once a day.
But keep casting halfass aspertions.
Vaporflyer wrote:
rojo wrote:
This has to be one of the dumbest post I've ever read.
You think a 2:08 guy running nearly 2:16 is a sign he's doping?
No.
1) He's stockier than other runners so he holds up better in the fold.
2) He's used to being in extreme pain as he races all the time (he passed out after his first 2:08).
3) He's used to awful conditions as he races so often + he ran in 1 degree temps this winter.
Ask IAAF BP experts what they think about this guy...
Why don't you asked them? Sure you are mates with them in your basement!