Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

From my experience, racing middle distance at roughly 1000ft. elevation is a favorable trade: slightly thinner air but 1000ft. elevation doesn't slow down fit middle distance runners.

Hahaha

- Farah runs sub 3:29 in Monaco and many more super fast times - something dubious with the track

- Coe runs sub 3:29 in Rieti and many more super fast times - blablabla

Hmmmmmm

just tell the truth wrote:

Hahaha

- Farah runs sub 3:29 in Monaco and many more super fast times - something dubious with the track

- Coe runs sub 3:29 in Rieti and many more super fast times - blablabla

Hmmmmmm

Well Rieti was one of Morceli's favorite tracks and his best two times were 3:28.86 and 3:29.99. This was a guy who ran 3:27.37 on the Nice track. Aouita's best time at Rieti was 3:32.71. This was a man who went for the WR in virtually every circuit race he ran and who had run a 3:46 mile earlier the same year in Helsinki.

People have doubts about the Monaco track because dozens of athletes have set pbs there and ran crazy times. People have doubts about Mo's 1500 time because his pb before that was something 3:34.

But hey, keep demonstrating you have the logical reasoning powers of a 5 year old.

just tell the truth wrote:

- Coe runs sub 3:29 in Rieti and many more super fast times - blablabla

Hmmmmmm

Coe has never run that fast.

Coevett wrote:

Well Rieti was one of Morceli's favorite tracks and his best two times were 3:28.86 and 3:29.99. This was a guy who ran 3:27.37 on the Nice track.

Morceli 3:28.86 after 7th place in Barcelona Olympics + 3:44.39

Ovett 3:30.77 after 4th place in Helsinki World Champs

Coe 3:29.77 after couldn't break 3:35 during season

teller of full truth wrote:

Ovett 3:30.77 after 4th place in Helsinki World Champs

Few days after 3:32.95 seasonal PB in Koblenz, his favoured track

teller of full truth wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Well Rieti was one of Morceli's favorite tracks and his best two times were 3:28.86 and 3:29.99. This was a guy who ran 3:27.37 on the Nice track.

Morceli 3:28.86 after 7th place in Barcelona Olympics + 3:44.39

Ovett 3:30.77 after 4th place in Helsinki World Champs

Coe 3:29.77 after couldn't break 3:35 during season

Do you think anyone following this discussion doesn't know that 86 was Coe's best season outside of his prime and what shape he was in? Furthermore, he was improving as the season went on due to missing the early season through illness (Commonwealth Games). Unfortunately, there were no more races left after Rieti, and he and his coach probably knew that that might be the very last day we saw Coe attempting a WR, and of course it was.

teller of fullest truth wrote:

teller of full truth wrote:

Ovett 3:30.77 after 4th place in Helsinki World Champs

Few days after 3:32.95 seasonal PB in Koblenz, his favoured track

Poor pacing in Koblenz. First lap c 58 high, as against 54 and bits in Rieti.

teller of full truth wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Well Rieti was one of Morceli's favorite tracks and his best two times were 3:28.86 and 3:29.99. This was a guy who ran 3:27.37 on the Nice track.

Morceli 3:28.86 after 7th place in Barcelona Olympics + 3:44.39

Ovett 3:30.77 after 4th place in Helsinki World Champs

Coe 3:29.77 after couldn't break 3:35 during season

Coe never tried to run a fast time earlier in the 86 season. 3:34 in Berne and 3:35 in Zurich were races and tune ups for Europeans.

Ran a 1:44.5 in Stuttgart in wet, cold and windy conditions, running 10m extra wide. Worth 1:43.2 with a 24. 5 last 200m, so was clearly in 1:42 form.

Deanoette

Monaco: no CoeCramOvett has set some of his best times there. So, look at the facts and after this do the conclusion (there must be very favourable conditions).

Rieti: CoeOvettalsoCram have set some of his best times there. So, do the conclusion first (there can't be some favourable conditions). After this, stretch or change the facts until they fit with the already done conclusion.

restrunner wrote:

Deanoette

Monaco: no CoeCramOvett has set some of his best times there. So, look at the facts and after this do the conclusion (there must be very favourable conditions).

Rieti: CoeOvettalsoCram have set some of his best times there. So, do the conclusion first (there can't be some favourable conditions). After this, stretch or change the facts until they fit with the already done conclusion.

Did Cram ever run in Rieti?

Btw what is this story about Aouita? Family issue it seems.

The difference between the discussion as to Monaco and Rieti is that a certain anti-Coe troll here is claiming that the Rieti track was short, thus trying to discredit Coe's times there, whereas Monaco the discussion is mostly how it is that Monaco produces such consistently amazing times. I don't think anyone seriously claims the Monaco track is short.

If the Rieti track was short, and could according to this troll result in Coe and Morceli running 5 seconds faster than they would otherwise be capable of on, it's funny how Morceli and Aouita didn't try to knock seconds off their WRs in future years once they'd discovered that fact. If Morceli ran 3:28 when he was in 3:34 shape in 92, I'm sure he realized at the time, and then the mind boggles as to why he didn't plan 93 around trying to break 3:20 at Rieti when he was in 3:27 shape. It seem he couldn't have been bothered, but if he had, he'd clearly still be the world record holder, as would Aouita if he had planned his season to be in close to best form for Rieti and have a real stab at a sub 3:25 time.

As for Cram, I don't know what times he ran at Rieti. It wouldn't surprise me if he ran a fast time there given that, like Coe after his 79-81 years, he peaked at strange times of the season according to his luck with injuries.

The Aouita news story concerns an allegation that his father has made that he was 'abused' by Said. According to Said, his father left his wife/Said's mother to marry a much younger female and that upset the family.

Coevett wrote:

The difference between the discussion as to Monaco and Rieti is that a certain anti-Coe troll here is claiming that the Rieti track was short, thus trying to discredit Coe's times there, whereas Monaco the discussion is mostly how it is that Monaco produces such consistently amazing times. I don't think anyone seriously claims the Monaco track is short.

No one claims Rieti track was short. But as in Monaco, many super fast times were run on this track. Obviously very favourable conditions, exactly like Monaco.

Cram ran his 2nd fastest 800 in Rieti.

restrunner wrote:

Deanoette

Monaco: no CoeCramOvett has set some of his best times there. So, look at the facts and after this do the conclusion (there must be very favourable conditions).

Rieti: CoeOvettalsoCram have set some of his best times there. So, do the conclusion first (there can't be some favourable conditions). After this, stretch or change the facts until they fit with the already done conclusion.

There was no meet at Monaco during Coe's & Ovett's era, certainly not part of the Grand Prix circuit. The first I remember it being a big meet was in the mid 90's.

Cram hasn't set 1 pb in Rieti.

Ovett has 1 pb set in Rieti, but his 3:30.77 most would agree is not close to what her was capable of in 79 - 81, when with better pacing he was certainly capable of below 3:30.

Coe set 1 pb in Rieti, when he was clearly in exceptional form. Again, however, his 3:31 in Stockholm 81, running solo and with 52.4 and 1:49.1 splits, was certainly worth 3:28 with decent economical pacing.

So all three certainly ran times at the same or similar distances that were on a par or better than what they ran at Rieti.

The reason that so many have run fast times in Rieti was that it was at the end of a season, just after the major Champs, when the athletes were close to or at peak condition (if not over tired from over racing) and were able to relax without the expectations and pressures of winning medals.

I did some research a few years ago, and below is what I discovered back at the end of 2014; I will perhaps update for 2015 - 2018 when I get the time!

'The (Monaco) track was resurfaced just prior to the 2010 meet there: -

http://www.presse.gouv.mc/304/wwwnew.nsf/1909$/4141C64660AF4F5EC1257727002AD7E4GB?OpenDocument&1GB

This is an interesting exert: -

"The work will focus on the resurfacing of the areas concerned: the first few centimetres of the upper layer of the track will be scraped off, then replaced by rubber resin, cast in one jointless block. This is made possible due to the physico-chemical compatibility between the new and old resin. The track will be faster and therefore conducive to new records, including at the next Herculis athletics meeting - Diamond League on Thursday 22nd July 2010."

The Monaco meet was ranked No.2 in 2009 (probably behind Zurich), but was already an established meet, with Baala running 3:30.96 in 2009.

But the fast times en masse didn't start until.... 2010!

That year the 5 fastest men all set those times in Monaco. I did a bit of research and I've put their time in Monaco followed by their non Monaco season's best time:

1. Kiprop ~ 3:29.27 (3:30.61) difference - 1.34

2. Laalou ~ 3:29.53 (3:32.75) " - 3.22

3. Choge ~ 3:30.22 (3:31.81) ' - 1.59

4. Wheating ~ 3:30.90 (3:37.52! - although he ran a Mile in 3:51.74 which = 3:34.57, so I'll take that) - 3.67

5. Gregson ~ 3:31.06 (3:35.42) difference - 4.36.

That's an average difference of 2.84 secs faster at Monaco for those athletes. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2010 was Kiplagat's 3:30.61 in Berlin.

2011 was a bit of a down year, but the meet still produced 4 times in the top 10 for the year.

2. (second fastest that year) Kiplagat ~ 3:30.47 (3:31.39) difference - 0.92

6. Chepseba ~ 3:31.74 (3:30.94) difference + 0.80 * The only athlete in the past 6 seasons (5 if not counting this season) listed here that has run a faster time on another track other than Monaco .

7. Kaki ~ 3:31.76 (didn't run any other listed 1500 that year)

8. Willis ~ 3:31.79 (3:33.22) difference - 1.43

15. Cheboi ~ 3:32.45 (3:33.82) " - 1.37

That's an average of 0.73 secs faster at Monaco for the 4 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2011 was Kiprop's 3:30.46 in Rieti.

2012 had 6 athletes in the top 10 coming from Monaco's race: -

1. Kiprop ~ 3:28.88 (3:29.78) difference - 0.90

3. Chepseba ~ 3:29.77 ( 3:29.90) " - 0.13

5. Willis ~ 3:30.35 (3:34.70) " - 4.35

6. Makhloufi ~ 3:30.80 (3:32.58) " - 1.78

7. Birgen ~ 3:31.00 (3:31.17) " - 0.17

9. Kiplagat Seuri! ~ 3:31.61 (3:33.27) " - 1.66.

That's an average of 1.50 secs faster at Monaco for the 6 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2012 was Kiplagat's 3:29.63 in Doha.

2013:-

1. Kiprop ~ 3:27.72 (3:31.13) difference - 3.41

2. Farah ~ 3:28.81 (no other listed 1500 for 2013)

3. Ndiku ~ 3:29.50 (3:33.41) difference - 3.91

5. Birgen ~ 3:30.77 (3:31.90) " - 1.13

6. Tanui-Ozbilen ~ 3:31.30 (3:35.09) " - 3.79

7. Cheboi ~ 3:31.53 (3:32.85) " - 1.32

That's an average of 2.71 secs faster at Monaco for the 5 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2013 was Kiplagat's 3:30.13 in Rieti.

2014:-

1. Kiplagat ~ 3:27.64 (3:29.70) difference - 2.06

2. Kiprop ~ 3:28.45 (3:29.18) " - 0.73

3. Kwemoi ~ 3:28.81 (3:31.48) " - 2.67

4. Souleiman ~ 3:29.58 (3:30.16) " - 0.58

5. Iguider ~ 3:29.83 (3:32.09) " - 2.26

=6. Wote ~ 3:29.91 (3:30.86) " - 0.95

=6. Willis ~ 3:29.91 (3:34.72) " - 4.81

10. Manzano ~ 3:30.98 (3:34.40) " - 3.42

11. Centrowitz ~ 3:31.09 (3:32.70) " - 1.61

That's an average of 2.12 secs faster at Monaco for the 9 with other listed times for 1500 that year. The fastest non Monaco performance in 2014 was Kiprop's 3:29.18 in Doha.

Monaco clearly has great credentials for fast time and is clearly the fastest/best track in the world for middle distances. This analysis doesn't prove it is in any way illegal, and is certainly not short, but it does raise the question as to why top athletes run on average of 2.03 secs faster (based on the data of the 29 athletes above over the 5 seasons, 2010-2014) on the Monaco track than on any other, over the course of the season?

I would suggest looking at the above data that the number of 'fast times' increased by 2012 and thereafter, as athletes realised that it was an incredibly fast track.

Nobody questions this.

How about the Bislett track? Always some argument over that track's distance. Probably just trolls.

Why was this race so fast?!