How to run sub 2 minutes in 800m

Thank you. My thinking is based on to trying to get the aerobic and anaerobic capacities in balance for the event. For the 800m, being ~60-69% aerobic (depending from the study), it's obvious that you must emphasize the aerobic endurance work, but without losing or weakening the anaerobic capacity. I'm not saying that you should do high mileage, about 75mpw /120k per week in the base should do it for most of us. Although Ovett and Snell did ~100mpw at least occasionally, etc. Even I did up to 128mpw / 205k at most during base, and improved even @ the 400m in the summer. I just made sure that I won't lose my speed by simply sprinting frequently. The possible high mileage itself during base doesn't take away your speed PERMANENTLY, if you frequently work on it too. Keep your mind open and be ready to try different things if the runner doesn't improve. If his/her 200-400m speed stays the same, at least, all the while you're able to improve the endurance, it should lead to better results. Work progressively up to your "sweet spot". The training volume etc are individual things, you must to figure out what's the background and the type of the runner you're coaching.

thank you. :)

Good thread but keep in mind this young athlete is probably 16/17 years old and wants to run sub 2 minutes for 800. His genetic endowment will determine much of his progression. In coaching a 15 year old who has run 1:57 he has done a lot of what you have said. We do short hill sprints year round, we cover 9-10k on a hilly course (2x900m hill, 1x700m hill, 2x250m hill) on a regular basis. We do some fast work but not necessarily 800m work. I have learned in coaching juniors that too much anaerobic work can be detrimental to their aerobic system. Many 800m runners do to much high end stuff and not the aerobic building running that gets them through the last 200 of an 800m. We do lots of running at current 3k race pace with some short fast work and this has produced a female at 16 run 2:11, a 13 year old boy run 2:09, and many more. Many roads to run fast the formula is the one that works for the athlete.

coahc wrote:

Good thread but keep in mind this young athlete is probably 16/17 years old and wants to run sub 2 minutes for 800. His genetic endowment will determine much of his progression. In coaching a 15 year old who has run 1:57 he has done a lot of what you have said. We do short hill sprints year round, we cover 9-10k on a hilly course (2x900m hill, 1x700m hill, 2x250m hill) on a regular basis. We do some fast work but not necessarily 800m work.

I responded to post of the nickname "co-ch", speaking about 800m training in general, I didn't say what to do in the case of the OP.

Like I said in my post, the training volume etc are individual things, you must to figure out what's the background and the type of the runner you're coaching.

Quoting you: "We do some fast work but not necessarily 800m work". It sounded to me like I was saying it. Especially younger runners should emphasize the basic qualities (top speed and endurance) over specific 800m (or so) work.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

This isn't true. While it would be easier the faster you are, you don't need to be under 25 for a flying 200m to break 2.

I knew a guy who could (MAYBE) just barely break 25 in a flying 200m and he ran 1:57 in the 800m.

Agree that the 200m is quite irrelevant.

Sprint times and how they convert to middle distance times is really very dependant on the individual.

There is this assumption amongst distance runners that two distance runners who both manage 25s for 200m therefore have the same amount of speed and that would translate to them having similar 800m ability. It's totally wrong.

The start and the early phases of a 200m run affect your end time massively and there is a reason sprinters spend a lot of time working on these technical stages. Some runners have vastly better acceleration than others, something which simply doesn't matter in the 800/1500.

This is even true to some extent with the 400m.

800ftw. wrote:

Agree that the 200m is quite irrelevant.

Sprint times and how they convert to middle distance times is really very dependant on the individual.

There is this assumption amongst distance runners that two distance runners who both manage 25s for 200m therefore have the same amount of speed and that would translate to them having similar 800m ability. It's totally wrong.

The start and the early phases of a 200m run affect your end time massively and there is a reason sprinters spend a lot of time working on these technical stages. Some runners have vastly better acceleration than others, something which simply doesn't matter in the 800/1500.

This is even true to some extent with the 400m.

To be at your best at the 800m you need to be fast enough at the 400m, and the same relation holds true between 400m and 200m ability. What's fast enough for you, yes it depends, referring to your comment about sprint vs. middle distance times.

About acceleration. Acceleration plays a role in a tactical 800 or 1500m races also. To be as competitive as you can, you'll search any possible ways to be more competitive. So I wouldn't say that acceleration doesn't matter.

Best of luck in your quest of running a 2 min. or better 800. You have gotten a lot of good advice from the other posts, particularly about building your base. Lydiard was asked how to apply "marathon training" to high school kids, especially Americans who are active throughout the school year in our sport (xc, indoor track, and spring track). His reply was to build a small base a few times a year.

One of the keys is to develop your speed so that after 6 weeks you are ready for a peak. Another thing to keep in mind is your attitude during the race. The "real race" doesn't begin until the 3rd 200 of the race. You must really work that portion. If you tire in the last 200 that effort put forth earlier will make you stronger so that eventually during the season you will run stronger and faster. Also focus on improving your running form as the more efficient runner you are the faster you will run.

Make sure you are eating properly and getting enough sleep. Keep up your spirits. Don't let unsatisfactory times discourage you. You must believe in yourself. Remember at your age you are getting stronger all the time. Big improvements can come. Enjoy your quest!!

I disagree. The acceleration necessary to run the best 200m you can is irrelevant in the 800m, even tactically. You have many more meters to ramp up your speed even in the slowest sit and kicks. The acceleration is far less aggressive and takes far less power than in a 200m.

I agree with the other poster that two runners could have adequate speed to run say 2:00 but one manages 25 for 200m and the other 24 when racing against eachother, despite having the same 1500m ability also.

I personally think you need at least 26 200 speed to break 2:00, nothing in the 24 region. Otherwise, extrapolating, we are saying that 1:45 runners need something like 20s 200m ability which is preposterous.

Interesting link with a fun little 200m calculator for those that like that sort of thing:

In 1963 I ran a 20 x 220 workout with Peter Snell at Angell Field, Stanford University. In those days you started at 30 seconds and gradually dropped the times down to 24. My best HS 880 (on cinders) was 1:53.0 and 220 22.4 So I thought I was pretty fast but on the last 220, which was flat out, I ran 23 and Peter flew by me in the last 75 yards. I'm sure he ran in the high 21's or low 22's and that was after 19 220's.

Part of the answer here is, what is your natural speed/endurance mix? Another way to put that, how does your best 400 compare with your best 5K? That can inform your training. Let's face it 2:08 is several universes away from breaking 2:00. How bad do you want it?

Getting under 2:00. Here's a workout.

3-mile warmup run, easy pace. 6 x 100 stride, slowly increasing to race pace. 1 @ 600 at race pace. 2 @ 400 faster than race pace. 4 - 5 min. between repeats. Note: Do not eat donuts prior to trying this.

I ran 2:07 as a HS junior, but was mainly a miler.

Senior year I changed to the half "how hard can it be to break 2:00?". Ran a 2:01.7 880, never got there in HS. The half is a ROUGH event.

Got under 2:00 right away at college with workouts like the above.

How bad do you want it? Good luck.

Big Red wrote:

Part of the answer here is, what is your natural speed/endurance mix?

This is correct. With some natural speed your big 5K time drop would bode very well for improving your 800 significantly. You likely built a really nice endurance base. Some good speed endurance work, like 400 repeats with limited recovery intervals would be a good start, with some shorter sharper stuff tossed in on occasion, but not neglecting overall threshold running and miles.

However, you say you ran 4:48 off of two weeks of running. Does this mean you took several weeks completely off after cross country? If so, that does not bode well for breaking 2 this season.

ex-runner wrote:

I disagree. The acceleration necessary to run the best 200m you can is irrelevant in the 800m, even tactically. You have many more meters to ramp up your speed even in the slowest sit and kicks. The acceleration is far less aggressive and takes far less power than in a 200m.

I disagree. Like said, to be as competitive as you can, you'll search any possible ways to be more competitive. You won't be as competitive as you could if you're able to improve your acceleration. Every meter and centimeter counts. With a better acceleration you could make the difference needed to a runner with similar top speed and endurance, but he/she only accelerates slower.

Real Old Guy wrote:

In 1963 I ran a 20 x 220 workout with Peter Snell at Angell Field, Stanford University. In those days you started at 30 seconds and gradually dropped the times down to 24. My best HS 880 (on cinders) was 1:53.0 and 220 22.4 So I thought I was pretty fast but on the last 220, which was flat out, I ran 23 and Peter flew by me in the last 75 yards. I'm sure he ran in the high 21's or low 22's and that was after 19 220's.

Thanks for the info. You see, the 200m speed (coupled with 400m speed) has a significant role at the 800m, generally speaking. Coe and Bucher also had the sub-22sec 200m speed, coupled with a great endurance, like I already mentioned earlier.

Jubal Early wrote:

Big Red wrote:

Part of the answer here is, what is your natural speed/endurance mix?

This is correct. With some natural speed your big 5K time drop would bode very well for improving your 800 significantly. You likely built a really nice endurance base. Some good speed endurance work, like 400 repeats with limited recovery intervals would be a good start, with some shorter sharper stuff tossed in on occasion, but not neglecting overall threshold running and miles.

However, you say you ran 4:48 off of two weeks of running. Does this mean you took several weeks completely off after cross country? If so, that does not bode well for breaking 2 this season.

So are several of you saying that to enhance your chances of running sub 2, you would do well by running XC?

What about those with decent 400 times, but just can't hack running 50 to 75 mpw?

co-ch wrote:

To those who have read Lydiards books: This has been several years ago, but I was sure I read in one of his

books, when someone asked him what was the distance that would tell him the most about the potential

of a middle distance or distance runner. His reply, I believe was: " the 200". I could be wrong on this.

Nobby would know. Is he on this board anymore? Peter Snell was what? : 21 + to :22 + ? Maybe it was :23.

Hope someone who knows, will read this and set me straight.

I still offer this quoted post - Can anyone get in touch with Nobby to see if he remembers Lydiard writing this?

And to the "Old man" who ran with Peter Snell, - what was the recovery time for your 20 X 220?

Thank you

Here is an excellent thread from a few years back:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5284140

one of my guys encouraged me to post my concept here because it worked so well for our group so here i am.

I developed this program as a last resort for one of my younger aspirants who always got injured off a traditional 1-2 workout, 1 long run and easy running weekly shedule. It's based on the stillwater type training i came across and involves a lot of the things you tend to forget when running only to put the miles in. (especially hip, ankle strength!!, explanation will follow)

The shedule stays the same year-round. Only thing to change is the speed and rest of the workouts. These are the things that will lead to peak and preparation. Its a 10-day cycle that looks like this:

1) 300-600s (1500 work) + jumps (vertical, horizontal, on the stairs. focus on holding form and explosiveness in the abs/hips)

2) easy 30-45mins + 4-6 strides

3) flying 30-60s (sprint stuff) with LONG rest (3minutes at least) + drills 4x100m each (this will hurt like hell but its worth it!)

4) 150-300s (800 work) + weights/core

5) tempo run from 2-4 miles + jumps

6) easy 35-45 + 4-6 strides

7) 800-1200s (long interval) + drills

8) 60-150s (400 work) again, longer rest to get the speed in. + weights

9) / rest

10) easy 45minutes, no strides

Rinse and repeat over and over again. If there is a race i let my guys do it on the 11th day before starting the cycle again. If its an important race, the previous cycle is a taper and the 12th day is a rest day.

Periodization is achieved through slight variations like changing the first day from 8x400 (64 pace) 1' rest to 12x400 (72 pace) with 400m quicker jog rest to get the aerobic system working (this is for 4 minute 1500 guys) but you should get the point. Dont do race pace too soon and keep your hands from the challenging stuff in the off-season.

Only thing to remain is the flying 30s. These are done year-round to keep the speed and benefit from it. I dont know how exactly it works on your CNS and body but it made even my most slow-twitch guys running a sub 60 quarter.

Thing about the jumps: When you see young, injury prone distance runners you refer to as 'weak' this is my #1 thing to strengthen them. Jumps help them to get some kind of strength in the abdominal region which thousand crunches, yoga/pilates or lifts were not able to give them.

Focus on form when jumping (butt tucked in, use your arms to fly and EXPLODE) and it will work wonders. Again, I'm not the science guy but im the trainer who sees that this stuff works.

Second thing if youre injury prone, esp. for those with ankle, foot or calf problems: your calves may be the strongest of the world but your real ankle muscles are still weak! Go in the longjump pit after every speed session (barefoot) and try to move sidewards through the whole pit, but with your legs straight and kept together! No steps allowed! This crawling motion will activate your real toe and arch muscles. Rope skipping (one legged, HIGH on your toes) is also very good.

Additional note: the schedule is low mileage, perfect opportunity to get rid of your clunky running trainers. Use flexible racing flats or lightweight trainers like the Nike Free, Skechers GoRun or Saucony Kinvara. Your opportunity to adjust. You wont need more miles. Trust me.

About the mileage: if you're really injury prone and slower than 2:10/4:30 than do not more than the cycle above which should lead to about 20-30 mpw approx.

Sub 4 1500 guys can chime in some more miles, especially in the off-season but HOLD BACK.

Even this 25mpw programme eventually led to many sub 2/4 performances, because the guys stayed healthy.

Remember, you are young and inexperienced, time to lay the foundation, miles can follow anytime.

Best improvement came from a 21 year old who didnt seem to improve from his 4:50 1500 and 17 high 5k times with 40mpw traditional training and was always injured. After 6 months of this and 20-25 mpw he ran 4:15 1500 and 2:05. Just lacked the speed and invisible muscle strength in the hip/ankle area you need for an economic running style with short ground contact.

Thank you for the free coaching clinic. Idk who you are, but I could guess that you know a thing or two. *busts out the notebook and pencil*

The first time I broke 2 I ran a 1:57. What helped me was doing 12x200 at sub 30 with 200m jog between each 200. I did this once a week in January and raced the 1:57 in February. My mindset at the time is iff I was going to go 2 flat, I need to be able to run 30.0 per 200m and to go sub 2, I would need to go faster than that. So I would basically do each 200 between 27-29, ideally starting at 29 and running consecutive sub 28 after the first three 200m or so.

Thank you, I appreciate it!