Bill Rodger and Frank Shorter potential if they would've of used Canova marathon training?

fred wrote:

"Ron Clarke, that in 1964-68 was the first athlete running (not every day, of course, but once every week) for 15-20km very close 3:00 per km."

So 9 to 12 @ 4:47 pace.

I think that Joe Falcon and Seb Coe , milers, ran 10 miles in 48-49 minutes as a workout. And Marius as a tempo workout. And Ryan Hall at 4:50 pace as a tempo workout. And Tergat did blocks of 9 milers at 4:50 pace ( on hills? at 5,000 feet? )

Sydney Maree also in the '70/80s and John Walker in the same time frame.

THIS STUPID, STUPID "WHAT IF" GARBAGE!

"What if" applies to every aspect of every athlete ever. Such ridiculous speculation about what WAS NOT AND SHALL NEVER BE!

OK, then. I'll play this silly game, just to be obnoxious.

What if Rodgers and Shorter had used Canova marathon training? Well...

Because he was adhering to a Canova marathon training regimen, marathon WR holder (the training would have led to the WR) Bill Rodgers would have severely shredded a groin muscle on June 3, 1979, effectively ending his running career. He would have become a movie mogul in Hollywood, pairing up with Harvey Weinstein to produce legendary American movie classics. One of them would have remained one of America's nicest guys. (The other...)

Because he was adhering to a Canova marathon training regimen, Shorter would have been hit by a lime-colored 18 wheeler with California plates while on a long run -- and he would have survived with minor injuries -- on June 4, 1979. He'd have quit running, become a minister in Boulder, CO, and SAVED Phillip Rocha in 2017. (Rocha, after graduating from Colorado, would have gone on to become Olympic 5k champion, bolstered by the love of the woman he once threatened with naughty and hurtful actions (to put it mildly) -- before Rev. Shorter rehabilitated him in time to prevent his ouster from the CU running program.

Rodgers' Hollywood studio would have filmed a biopic of Rocha's life, starring PR as himself. Phillip would have won the Oscar, making him the only person to win an Oscar and an Olympic gold medal. With one more year of college eligibility left, and having accepted no pro money, he would have bulked up (he was an elite runner, so he would have already known about juicing), walked onto the CU football team as a grad student, played interior lineman, and been rewarded with the Outland Trophy...giving him the "Triple O's": Oscar, Olympic gold, and Outland Trophy. A true American hero.

ALL BECAUSE of Canova marathon training.

What if I hadn't just wasted 15 minutes bothering everyone?

I sort of agree with your post. We hear about the successes of Canova's marathon training approaches but what about the failures? Didn't Bekele have issues with Canova's approach and what happened to Ryan Hall? I think it's hard to take a certain approach for distance running say Lydiard, Canova or whoever and say for certain that it is going to have success in any given athlete ...

I think nutrition information and maybe better shoes (especially racing) may have made them better.

Other than that- I think social aspects are different.

In the 70's many people had a "what's the hurry" attitude towards life.

Many young people took time to chase a dream- musicians, writers, runners.

Now, young people are in a hurry to get a job and save for retirement.

The cost of living is much higher.

I remember making $3.15 and hour/40 hrs a week and affording a house (with a couple roommates, food, going out money, and running shoes, and race expense money no problem.

I had friends who were MUCH faster than me and they did this to chase the dream of making nationals, etc.

Guys like Shorter and Rodgers reached their potential and made money off of their running (even in the non-pro era).

HRE wrote:

Rodgers had been running marathons seriously since 1974. It takes a toll. Tell me what marathon runners were winning major races seven or eight years after their first major win. Ron Hill might be a possibility but Ron was placing well in some big marathons, not winning, since 1963. But he wasn't winning major marathons until 1969. And do you know if Rodgers was training the same in the 80s as before? If so, how do you know and what was he doing. Hodgie-san only has Rodgers' logs to 1977 on his website so far and I don't know of any other place where one could see them. I'd be interested in what you know and how.

In the early 80s Rodgers frequently mentioned his training. It was the same old same old. He really did say he would have done some things differently. Some guys are just better at accepting that.

De Castella won Fukuoka in '81 and Rotterdam in '92.

HRE wrote:

Rodgers had been running marathons seriously since 1974. It takes a toll. Tell me what marathon runners were winning major races seven or eight years after their first major win. Ron Hill might be a possibility but Ron was placing well in some big marathons, not winning, since 1963. But he wasn't winning major marathons until 1969. And do you know if Rodgers was training the same in the 80s as before? If so, how do you know and what was he doing. Hodgie-san only has Rodgers' logs to 1977 on his website so far and I don't know of any other place where one could see them. I'd be interested in what you know and how.

Seko won Fukuoka for the first time in '78 and London, Chicago and Boston in '86-'87.

Antonio Pinto won London in '92 and 2000.

Did Rodgers tell you that he'd have done some things differently or did you read it somewhere? And did he say what it would have been?

Thanks.

HRE wrote:

Did Rodgers tell you that he'd have done some things differently or did you read it somewhere? And did he say what it would have been?

In 1988 RW did an extensive interview with Shorter and Rodgers.

Training logs lack specifics. Those guys ran by feel a lot of the time. It is very likely that they were doing long tempo near marathon pace pretty often. They were definitely logging big miles. They did not have GPS watches to tell them exact paces and often their courses were not measured so paces were unknown. They might just say "pretty good pace" or "moderate" or some such description in their log book. Just because they did not have the same precise data we have today does not mean they were just aimlessly wandering around on their runs. They were the best of their era and circumstances are different today.

Would Jim Ryun in his prime still make the Olympic team? Almost certainly. Would he have beaten Centrowitz in Rio? Who knows. It is just speculation. It is also just speculation that coach A is better than coach B because the coach different people with different talents, backgrounds and competition.

Were Shorter and Rodgers great runners? Yes.

If you look at the log in 1977 on a random Tuesday (August 9th) Rodgers ran a 1 hour race on the track and made it 12.75 miles. I think his half marathon speed was adequate for a marathon faster than 2:09 on a flat paced course. That one hour race was in the middle of a 125 mile week which had just followed 135 so it wasn't like he tapered or anything.

They weren't that archaic. Rodgers did a lot of laps of a loop (Jamaica Pond) of known distance. Many runners back in the day measured favored routes by car.

Now people actually measure the same route every day by GPS as if it is going to change.

Mental Yentel wrote:

They would perform somewhat faster in this era, by how much I do not know, even without changing their training because they would have to run faster to be in the hunt for the top.

Many of the barriers in sport have a mental component and this is especially so in running and track.

It is amazing how quickly a sub four minute mile became somewhat common in the decade after Bannister broke the barrier.

Human micro-evolution did not move that fast.

Rodgers' and Shorter's performances were recent enough and close enough to modern finishing times so that a 1-2% improvement is not unreasonable just from will, competitive instinct, pride or whatever you want to call it.

They'd do what it takes to get under 2:07 because they'd learn that 2:09-2:11 was not going to get them where they wanted to go.

HRE wrote:

And I await a good argument as to why they would be better off with training nowadays. I don't see any reason to believe it's any better than what they were doing and probably won't until we see someone other than East Africans turning in significantly faster times.

Ummm... ever heard of Sondre Nordstad Moen?

The Land of Midnight Sun wrote:

HRE wrote:

And I await a good argument as to why they would be better off with training nowadays. I don't see any reason to believe it's any better than what they were doing and probably won't until we see someone other than East Africans turning in significantly faster times.

Ummm... ever heard of Sondre Nordstad Moen?

Sure. And I've heard of Ryan Hall. One guy running really fast every few years proves nothing. He ran great. He's three minutes off the world record. He had pacers to follow. He didn't win. When we see non East Africans making up more than half of Track and Field News' annual rankings, or even getting one or two people into them consistently, maybe there'd be a reason to think the training is better. But there are still so many other variables to account for that even then it would be an article of faith.

You really want to believe you lived and trained in the pinnacle years of training, don't you?

yes, indeedie. as a matter of fact, I sent Billy this thread.

Hi Billy.

we chat quite a bit.

Yep.

6. Alberto Salazar—2:08:52, Boston Marathon, 1982

7. Dick Beardsley—2:08:54, Boston Marathon, 1982

9. Greg Meyer—2:09:00, Boston Marathon, 1983

10. Bill Rodgers—2:09:27, Boston Marathon, 1979

11. Ron Tabb—2:09:31, Boston Marathon, 1983

14. Ken Martin—2:09:38, New York City Marathon, 1989

16. Benji Durden—2:09:57, Boston Marathon, 1983

17. Pat Petersen—2:10:04, London Marathon, 1989

18. Phil Coppess—2:10:05, Twin Cities Marathon, 1985

19. Ed Mendoza—2:10:07, Boston Marathon, 1983

20. Jeff Wells—2:10:16, Boston Marathon, 1983

21. Tony Sandoval—2:10:19, U.S. Olympic Trials (Buffalo), 1980

22. Garry Bjorklund—2:10:20, Grandma’s Marathon, 1980

23. Craig Virgin—2:10:27, Boston Marathon, 1981

24. Kirk Pfeffer—2:10:29, Fukuoka Marathon, 1980

25. Frank Shorter—2:10:30, Fukuoka Marathon, 1972

ismgasm wrote:

Need to know wrote:

Who is Bill Rodger?

He's the guy who would've of if he could've of.

But did he should've of? That's the real question.

10/10