How often should you go to "the well" ?

slopenguinrunner wrote:

I wonder, "How do you teach someone to push this pain threshold in a race if they never come across it in practice?".

Thus, I figured that there was a place for such go to the well workouts.

You don't need to push it, that's what most runners are doing wrong. All you need to do is test it. You can hold this effort level and beyond much longer in a race, because you and I and almost everyone has this natural ability to push themselves. Trying to prove it time after time in training is the wrong approach.

The "train don't strain" philosophy of training is much much more important to understand than any other and it takes years to fully comprehend the significance. Hopefully you get it while you are still in your peak years due to good coaching rather than learning the hard way when you are old and past your best.

Lydiard or Daniels? Really there is no contest. In the past Renato Canova would sometimes weigh in on these types of threads and say that we don't understand how hard Keyan athletes train, and it's true, on paper their workouts look extremely impressive and they are, but they recover quickly and keep building. It's the quick recovery that allows the number of fast workouts and the distances run and the two things are complementary.

thedub wrote:

The reason I became curious about the subject is because I just read running with the buffaloes, and there was several times that Wetmore explicitly told his runner to get into debt, and to go to the well.

He has had tremendous success with his programs as well.

And that didn't lead to long term success.

Running is a long term journey, with a focus on the present and the future. As a runner, you want to be successful in the current state and in the future state.

All the tough, hard running successful collegiate runners don't have long, great pro careers, or their pro success is very limited.

Just look at Ryan Hall. He trained hard and long, and had some outstanding success while doing it. However, look at him now. Dude was toast by the age of 28, which is nuts. He couldn't even finish races anymore, or get to the starting line. He just kept getting injured, and that was due to so much hard training early on in his career. Distance runners are still babies in their late 20s, and should be hitting their prime in their middle 30s

American runners simply run too hard, and they usually fade hard because of it. Meb, Bernard Legat ran top 5, top 10 in their 40s. I can't think of one american born runner who has/is doing that.

Meb stated that he never ran hard, hard during training, and that he saved it for the race. So I think I'll listen to him, instead of some high school or college coach telling me to kill myself every once and a while during training, when I don't need to do that to be an excellent runner.

^^^ This is real GOLD. I agree with all of it.

Kenyans do consistent, boring training throughout their careers. They never do anything out of their regular format, or adopt some crazy routine to improve or maintain.

Their aerobic cabinets are full, so all they need to do is build on it, and keep the speed sharp. They don't kill themselves.

Honestly, we aren't that far apart. I say there is a place for it sometimes 2 or 3 times in the course of a whole year.

49 or 50 weeks out of 52 weeks of the year don't have such workouts. It is train, don't strain.

I am just saying never say never.

It's really not about a physical benefit, but a psychological benefit. And I would add a certain caveat about my runners; all of them were space cadets. None were not naturally competitive. They were great kids, but not tough kids, at first. Great runners will have that mental spark wherein they can push past their training; most high school coaches will not have great runners that have that mental spark. But that toughness can be taught.

As for Kenyans, a lot of them train differently. Brother O'Connell is far and away from the all the stuff Canova does. And people vastly understate the Kenyans who often run and train by feel; the ones who don't use gadgets or know the distances they run and take their easy days really, really, easy. But I think Kenyan society and culture, for various reasons, gives the Kenyan more of mental competitive spark that Americans don't really have.

never, only do that in races

(Stolen from

)

Josh Kimeto, who won the '76 (?) NCAA 5K for Washington State, was once asked why American distance runners weren't as good as their Kenyan counterparts. Kimeto was one of the less-reserved Kenyans, and he said, "American distance runners don't understand pain."

Queried as to how he could make that kind of statement, he said, "Pain is when you're 13 and the village elders take you out into the forest, lay your dick on a flat rock and pound the foreskin off with a sharp one. And you're not supposed to show that it hurts. That's pain."

the mohel wrote:

(Stolen from

https://trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/showthread.php?134801-Circumcision/page3

)

Josh Kimeto, who won the '76 (?) NCAA 5K for Washington State, was once asked why American distance runners weren't as good as their Kenyan counterparts. Kimeto was one of the less-reserved Kenyans, and he said, "American distance runners don't understand pain."

Queried as to how he could make that kind of statement, he said, "Pain is when you're 13 and the village elders take you out into the forest, lay your dick on a flat rock and pound the foreskin off with a sharp one. And you're not supposed to show that it hurts. That's pain."

There's an old Sports Illustrated article Kenny Moore wrote on Kenyan runners that stuck with me for years. And it delves a bit into tribal circumcision rituals.

There is a gap between what we think is pain and what Kenyans think of pain.

When I ran in college I went to the well in every single workout unless my coach specifically told me not to (rare). I improved immensely. I am now in my 4th year of coaching high school. My first few years I allowed my kids to do crush every workout...they never finished the season well, the "lazy" kids that didn't workout well raced better, and there was less joy at practices.

This year I have kept the kids from going to the well, haven't done that once. We are so much better than we were the other 3 years. They just weren't recovering in the past.

coacher wrote:

When I ran in college I went to the well in every single workout unless my coach specifically told me not to (rare). I improved immensely. I am now in my 4th year of coaching high school. My first few years I allowed my kids to do crush every workout...they never finished the season well, the "lazy" kids that didn't workout well raced better, and there was less joy at practices.

This year I have kept the kids from going to the well, haven't done that once. We are so much better than we were the other 3 years. They just weren't recovering in the past.

I'm mostly along the same lines as this, with a significant caveat: "there will be variations between your athletes". Some athletes enjoy it and can thrive from digging deep relativly often, others break down.

Example:

I had a fairly talented girl as a sophomore. During her freshman year, she kept running over her head in workouts and crashing. She still ran some good times for a frosh (19:12 at Woodward park and 5:14 for 1600 in the spring.)

During cross of her sophomore year, I purposefully never let her do much beyond what is now regarded as Critical Velocity pace. A very standard workout for her that season was 5x1200 on a 6 minute cycle. Very early in the season, she started running them like she had the year before, hitting the first couple of reps right around 5k pace. I really worked on slowing her down until she was right around 5 min for 1200. Most quality training efforts were of similar intensity. Total volume was around 40mpw. Later in the season, she was running the 1200s right around what had been her 5k pr pace from the previous season, but they felt as easy or easier than they had for her early in the season. Still only about 1 minute recovery. She went on to place 5th in the CA state meet that year, with a huge surge over the last mile that took her from 13th to 3rd, before she got out kicked in the home straight by a girl who would go on to run the #1 800 in the USA that spring.

Another athlete a few years later was totally different. He had started off as a kid struggling to break 14 min for 2 miles as a frosh, but found he could just grind away. By his Jr year he was at 9:37 for 3200. Senior year, he was pretty far ahead the rest of his teammates, so I often had to modify his workouts or let him run solo, timing himself. If the other boys were doing 5x1200 on a 5:30 cycle, he might be doing 5 x 1 mile with 1 min recovery. Based on what his PRs were for cross at the time, he probably should have been running those CV miles at 5:20-5:30 pace, but since he was on his own running by feel, he'd end up going a lot faster. I remember looking at splits from an early season workout. His times started at 5:18 and worked down to 5:08 (faster than his 5k pr pace). This guy should have tanked it later in the season, but instead ended up running his best race at the section championships where he beat a talented rival (9:12 on the track that season), won our division at the section meet, and had the 7th fastest time on the day when all divisions were combined (despite the fact that we were late in the day when the weather was pretty warm and the large schools had run in the cool of the morning.). He went to the well weekly on his quality efforts, still was grinding mileage on his regular distance days, doubling 3 days a week, and still recovering well enough to keep going.

So, yeah, it varies.

I agree. I think this is a thing that a lot of people miss is the genetic variation between different runners and athletes. What works for one runner won't necessarily be optimal for a different runner.

And to note, I use "optimal" for a reason. You can give a runner a program and they will improve. But it does not necessarily mean they will improve in a way that fulfills their potential.

When I was at a clinic in the spring, a coach was showing the different densities of training for his pro athletes. One was doing hard and moderately hard workouts every other day. Another was a mix of mostly moderate days mixed in with easy days with a very rare hard day. Another was a mix of one moderate and one hard day each week. Then he told us about one runner who's workouts were completely based on feel; no set distance and no watch. Just run as long as you felt. Her weekly long run was described as "run as long as you feel then when you get to the point you don't feel like running, keep on running".

Obviously, it's tough to be this individualized for a high school team. But you're right, it varies.

slopenguinrunner wrote:

...I would prefer to do deception workout with a runner in order to get them to realize they could dig deeper. Like three sets of 4x400 at 5k pace with short rest, but add a fourth set after they went all out on the last 400 of the 3rd set.

...

That's kinda brutal.

Maybe that teaches to dig deeper, but maybe it teaches to hold back when you're never sure that it's actually the last set. Certainly doesn't seem to build trust.

opinions differ wrote:

why is it bad wrote:

A lot of people say never or rarely... what about digging deep and trying to go past the point of failure is bad for you? Are people saying that you can't recover from that kind of work out easily? Or somehow it implies injury?

I'm not being argumentative - I am genuinely interested in why a very hard workout is bad for you and what specifically about it makes it something you'd want to do very rarely.

You should build fitness gradually until you are ready to race, then train cautiously between races. Races should usually be the hardest workouts. Think of them as the ultimate training.

I don't think you quite addressed his question, although i like what you wrote.

To address his question directly: the idea behind not always going 100% for workouts is that if you go 100%, it may take 4 or 5 days of base mileage to recover. If you go at 98%, you may get 99% of the benefit, but recover in only 2 days. This means you can do two workouts in the same time period.

This isn't too say that workouts can't be very hard, just sets up a distinction between a very hard day and truly going at a full effort (i.e. "going to the well").

98% effort is still pretty darned painful and difficult. It is just holding back that extra push. Some runners will do this naturally anyway, because they can't get the mental edge in a workout. For a 15 flat 5k runner, this is running about 1.5 seconds slower per 400m repeat at race pace, or running a 15:18 in practice when your PR is 15 flat, it's pretty darned hard still.

yepppppppp wrote:

slopenguinrunner wrote:

...I would prefer to do deception workout with a runner in order to get them to realize they could dig deeper. Like three sets of 4x400 at 5k pace with short rest, but add a fourth set after they went all out on the last 400 of the 3rd set.

...

That's kinda brutal.

Maybe that teaches to dig deeper, but maybe it teaches to hold back when you're never sure that it's actually the last set. Certainly doesn't seem to build trust.

Sure..... brutal if it was their first week of running in their lives.

But it was for varsity runners. All with experience. All that trusted one another and the coaching staff. All that would become sub 17:00 runners in the course of the season. All that would have had 4 sets of 4x400 on the schedule. All that executed workouts as they were told.

And it is actually quite normal. It's really nothing novel or brutal. There is some research and writing on these types of workouts. More recently that I have seen are articles by Steve Magness and Alex Hutchinson. Also, there are many coaches that have runners do longer intervals in groups but assign a certain runner to surge like hell for 45 seconds of the interval. No one in the group knows who is going to surge for that interval or when, except for that runner.

Racing, by its very nature, is unpredictable. You can run perfect even splits and hope for the best.

But if you are trying to win an individual race or you need to make up points midrace for a team championship, it's one hell of a gamble to sit back and assure yourself your even splits will save the day when the other team or runner makes a push mid race.

The difference between winning and losing is often refusing to let the other runner(s) go.

This is a really, really good topic.

I agree with people who've said the answer is different when you're talking about middle distance runners (800/1500 in particular). When you're specifically trying to develop lactate tolerance, you have to do some really, really hard workouts. There's just no way around that. Fortunately, the volume in these workouts tends to be low enough that people can bounce back, so long as they don't try to hold a peak too long.

When you get up to 5k and beyond, you should go to the well very rarely, and only late in the cycle. Generally speaking, you stimulate physiological adaptations by stressing a system until it becomes embarrassed. You don't need to obliterate yourself to cause adaptations. If you do, then you'll be unlikely to be able to get the density of quality that you need into your schedule, because you just won't recover.

I think there are pretty much two reasons to go to the well (for true distance runners). First, when workouts of moderate difficulty cease yielding adaptations, then you need a bigger stress to convince your body to continue adapting. Second, and most importantly, brutal workouts prepare your brain. This happens in a number of ways. On a conscious level, completing a really hard workout gives you confidence, which is a huge part of performing. On a more primal level, going to the well is extremely painful, but the more you experience pain, the less your brain is affected by it. It's the same with almost any stimulus. Thrill seekers have to do more and more dangerous things to get a rush. By exposing yourself to a lot of pain in training, you will literally experience less pain when racing, because your brain is tuning out the stimulus.

thedub wrote:

The reason I became curious about the subject is because I just read running with the buffaloes, and there was several times that Wetmore explicitly told his runner to get into debt, and to go to the well.

He has had tremendous success with his programs as well.

I'm trying hard to remember the context (without looking through my copy of the book).

From what I recall, he had one workout that would really be as close to a "go to the well" workout. That was towards the end of the season where he had his guys to two 800s as fast as they could possibly do two fast 800s. It wasn't all out 800m pace, nor was it one all out and die on the second. Fast, but even. So I think the runners basically were going faster than mile pace.

But that was also faster than anything they ran at any point in the season. Maybe they did a fartlek that touched on 5k pace early in the season like late August. So for that moment, it was "to the well".

I would also add that I got the impression from the book that Wetmore pumped up the general attitude as going to the well. They run more than other programs. They have the early morning practices because you want to be different than the other kids at school. These guys want to be excellent as opposed to average. These guys do something different others just get on by. That, in of itself, is not really going to the well.

Ok would love to see if I am on the right track and get some feedback on our workouts.. Am I "going to the well" or not in these, and if so is it appropriate.

HS coach use Daniels Vdot for calculations. We do the following two interval sessions mixed in over a 4 week period.. alternating one one each week. #1 800-1200-800-1200-800 w a 400 real slow jog in between for recovery and #2 5 x 1000 with 3-4 minute recovery We also do a weekly threshold workout each week.. usually 20 minutes straight at Daniels T pace. We used to do this on wed after a Monday interval session, now we I have went to the Daniels back to back method with the T on Monday and I on Tuesday.

Kids really struggle with the first one and more than half cannot hit their time ranges but seem to nail the 5 x 1000 one. not sure why?? maybe the jog recovery? (although I am pretty sure it takes all of them at least 3 minutes for that jog).maybe just the added stress of a 1200 physically/mentally?

Anyway.. are these really going to the well?? Their Vdots are based off of recent pr's and the terrain is slightly rolling roads with half dirt half tar. Also I do "group" kids together who are a vdot or two apart as I see fit based nohow i think they need to race in relation to teammates.. i.e. some not racing to potential, some who tend to push workouts too hard and need to slow down etc...

This might be the time to point out that the phrase is more "go to the bottom of the well" rather than just '"to the well".

Every Strava segment

Squeeze the lemon wrote:

This might be the time to point out that the phrase is more "go to the bottom of the well" rather than just '"to the well".

No, its not.

And in any event, perception is different in practice for some reason. "All out" in practice is rarely "all out". It may "feel" like its all you got and I do advocate going "all out" at times in that sense. But its not really "all out" for most people.

For example, tempos are difficult from me, always have been. Yet I can run "tempo pace" in a race easily. I think I just lack the adrenaline rush or whatever that is associated with a real live race.