Success with Daniels?

What is aerobic power steady pace JS?

is this faster than the standard easy long run?

Marathon effort is not as elusive as you’re making it sound Smoove. It’s supposed to feel easy at first. But throughout the course of a long steady run, you are producing similar aerobic stress (albeit at a slower pace probably than race day). Focus on things like your breathing and stride patterns.

parktom wrote:

What is aerobic power steady pace JS?

is this faster than the standard easy long run?

It`s the recommended individual "easy pace" by Daniels VDOT where

you get most effect out from your aerobic power steady pace. You will not exceed 80% of MHR when running that pace, more like 70-75 %. Even Lydiard talked about the very best LSD- pace ( Long Steady Distance) and ment the best pace was not a very slow one but fairly good pace, where the runner still could conduct a dialogue if so. This pace underlying and explains why it`s possible to reach optimal aerob capacity on just singles.

Or, if you want to base your M training pace off of your current T training pace, according to the VDOT charts, your 6:00 T = 6:19 M (VDOT 59).

Or listen to the man himself:

Cheers

This is an honest question and is genuinely not meant to draw out information about you as an individual. How many marathons have you raced too hot?

seems like marathon pace would then be pretty close to adjusted T pace for an 8-10 mile tempo? daniels adjusts T pace depending on how long a tempo run is so this may be why he has included these M pace runs for shorter events?

Smoove wrote:

This is an honest question and is genuinely not meant to draw out information about you as an individual. How many marathons have you raced too hot?

Enough to know what I’m talking about. Note that I am simply suggesting an alternative way to look at things.

I heard the current POTUS has had some success and some failures with Daniels....

Well, how did your breathing and stride patterns feel as compared to various baseline touchstones at different times in the marathon? What things did you key on during your marathons with respect to those things?

The reason for the question is this-

I know what rep work feels like for me. I key on feeling my heels just kicking my butt a touch on the first few strides of rep work, then I focus on a forward lean, driving my arms with a fair amount of energy and focusing on being up on my toes. My breathing will be a non-issue for the first 100m, then will become increasingly labored so that I will be breathing pretty heavy if I go 400m, but not 200m. My cadence will increase and will have a "tap, tap, tap, tap" rhythm to it, which ends up at about 190-200 spm.

I know what 5k pace feels like. I key on being up on my toes a bit, with a long and open stride and quicker turnover than easy distance pace, but if I kick myself in the butt with my heel, I know I am going way too fast. Arm swing will be with some added effort, but not much. Breathing will be easy for first 400m, then will grow increasingly labored until it reaches your typical end of race breathing pattern 800m-1000m into the interval. My cadence will definitely be crisper than easy distance, but not like it is on rep work, which turns out to be about 180 spm.

I know what threshold pace feels like. I key on keeping my stride open and maybe being up on my toes early on to open up that stride, but then settle into a foot strike that is more like my easy distance pace foot strike. My arm swing is relaxed without any additional energy added, but with a focus on a clean swing. My breathing should remain like easy distance breathing the first 400-600m, and gradually increases in intensity over the course of the effort with my breathing patter eventually moving away from my easy distance breathing pattern to something other than that and other than my 5k race day breathing pattern. If I am doing cruise intervals and find myself breathing the way I do during a race, I remind myself to relax my breathing first and let that dictate the pace. If I am doing a continuous tempo run, I do the same thing for the first 10 minutes, and then recognize that I might end up closer to race day breathing over the last 5 to 10 minutes of the effort. My cadence, despite being up on my toes a little early and because of the relaxed arm swing, is quicker than my easy distance cadence, but slower than my 5k cadence and turns out to be in the low to mid 170s.

But for "marathon race day effort," my breathing would be the same as my easy distance breathing patterns. My arm swing would be the same as my easy distance arm swing. My stride would elongate some, but I would never be up on my toes at all nor would I ever come close to kicking myself in my but. The only thing that would be notably different than on my easy distance pace runs, other than pace, is that my cadence will end up close to my threshold effort cadence (which really is a function of pace, and not really an "input" itself for me.

And I think most people, if they listened to their bodies during workouts, would be able to point to similar cues from their bodies for most effort levels, but would struggle to be able to point to body cues associated with marathon effort.

Smoove wrote:

...The other 3 involved almost no aerobic stress at all because I kept getting 15-30 second rest breaks every mile or so....

Hi Smoove, sorry to drift the thread topic, but can you clarify what this means? Are you talking about water stops? Every mile? Thanks.

Nah, I was alluding to my need to stop because of calf cramping. In each of my last three marathons, my weakness has been my second rate calves, which caused me to stop and stretch repeatedly.

Smoove wrote:

Well, how did your breathing and stride patterns feel as compared to various baseline touchstones at different times in the marathon? What things did you key on during your marathons with respect to those things?

There is a rhythmic quality to every level of effort. I'd have someone like you, Smoove, run at M pace, T pace, etc.... and keep a diary where you are forced to log on a daily basis the sensations that arise from such efforts. On race day I would remind you that it's going to feel a lot easier at first...therefore, scale back one level.

So I take it that you don't want to discuss your own body cues derived from you experience of marathon training?

You say you would have them run at M pace or T pace, etc. Do you mean that, or do you mean M effort, T effort, etc.?

Because I think you mean effort, not pace (in fact, you use effort in the second part of the same sentence when you use pace). And therein lies the problem - M effort is hard to pin down. Again, I can pin down a bunch of telltale signs that tie into other levels of effort - see my notes above regarding degree to which I am on my toes, or driving my harms, or bringing my heel up to my butt or changing my breathing patterns. None of those things are tied to pace, but rather to effort. But the only thing I can think of to describe marathon effort, is to describe it in the negative: not on my toes, not driving my arms, heels not coming up, breathing not changing. So to run marathon effort, the closest that I can come to is to run as hard as I can without any of those things happening. But on most days when I am fit, that is going to mean 6:10 pace slower, which will do very little to establish biomechanical and cellular efficiency gains for 5:45 pace running.

Hi guys. Would love to hear your views on why daniels includes 2 minute H pace interval workouts? he has said 3-5 minutes was the range for vo2 max adaptions?

any ideas why he includes workouts with intervals of only 2 minutes? very confused with there inclusion.

I know that exists in Phase II of the 5k plan. Is it anywhere else? This is the phase before JD includes "I" pace work. Phase II is mostly R pace and a little bit of T pace. R pace stuff is also never more than 400m I think? So unless your 1 mile race pace is 8min/mi you aren't ever doing any other repeats that long in Phase II, and never any intervals that short in Phase III.

It seems logical to conclude that a new pace range "H" is supposed to be something in between "R" and "I" and has a function other than VO2 max. Likely....as a bridge between the short fast R reps of Phase II and the longer slower I reps in Phase III.

JD cornerstone is everything has a purpose....that doesn't mean the purpose has to be VO2max.

Smoove wrote:

The only thing that would be notably different than on my easy distance pace runs, other than pace, is that my cadence will end up close to my threshold effort cadence (which really is a function of pace, and not really an "input" itself for me.

And I think most people, if they listened to their bodies during workouts, would be able to point to similar cues from their bodies for most effort levels, but would struggle to be able to point to body cues associated with marathon effort.

It's not something that can easily be put into words. It's a feeling, you just know it. But I think you're coming very close to pinning down what might be a good entry point for you in this search for marathon effort. Cadence.

Let's be clear, I'm not searching for marathon effort. Running at current estimates marathon pace has a very specific purpose under a Daniels approach, so I have little interest in marathon effort. I wouldn't say no interest, because heat, fatigue, hills, etc. will all impact actual pace, but I am experienced enough to know how hose things will impact pace be how to adjust accordingly.

But I think this exercise identifies why there is sometimes some frustration with your posts. Daniels has very specific reasons to run at M pace. You come to a Daniels-focused training thread and discount the importance of M pace and say instead M effort should be the guide. I note that M effort is not meaningful to many people and it is nearly impossible to pin down. You reply that it isn't as hard as I am saying and that one should focus on their stride and breathing patterns. When asked how many marathons you've run yourself, you won't answer. When asked to provide some physical cues to use to lock in on M effort, you then go with "it is hard to put into words, but maybe cadence." I don't think any of that adds Mich value to a Daniels focused training thread.

I know you mentioned that I would disagree with you about marathon pace being rather dispensable, but that is something we do see similarly on. The marathon is a unique beast and is unlike many other races. I like the rule of specificity, but it doesn't necessarily apply to the marathon that much. Top marathon runners actually run very close to their lactate threshold for a large part of the race. I know the lactate threshold breakpoint is usually defined as the 60min race effort range for most people, but it really is a continuum and not necessarily a specific breakpoint of V02max or the traditional 4.0 mmol range that most people think of (for instance, untrained runners can hit their lactate threshold at 70% of their current V02 max!). There has also been some research indicating that top 10000m runners can sustain around 9-10 mmol for close to 20 minutes. Pretty amazing. Basically marathon runners can think of lactate threshold as their ceiling and the goal is to extend that out to the marathon as much as possible. It mostly is an endurance question. Resistant to fatigue, fuel balance, resistance to fat, etc.

Operating off of a Daniels perspective, I do think lots of threshold running and running focusing on bio mechanical efficiency to develop great running economy is actually quite paramount to running a fast marathon by increasing your cruising speed (that's what you are doing in the race). Long tempos at marathon effort is cool to do, but not necessary. If you do something like that, it doesn't need to be as specifically honed in on marathon pace because the goal is to not have your aerobic threshold actually become your marathon pace, but rather extend out your lactate threshold even further. I am a big Canova/Tinman supporter and they tend to agree with me as well. Very little marathon-specific work. People see Canova's marathon training plans and see these very long 30-40k runs and assume they are essentially practice marathons. They are not. His group and Eliud both run those roughly at 90% of what they run a marathon in. In essence, its just a highly aerobic long run to work on endurance while they do a boat load of threshold, sub-threshold, 10k, 5k, and faster work throughout the year continuously. Marathon specific work is good from a mental standpoint but actually has little relevance to running a fast marathon physiologically speaking.