Do all High School coaches overtrain their distance runners?

pompous asz detector wrote:

curious... wrote:

[quote]pompous asz detector wrote:

Are you saying that there aren´t any coaching eductions in America?

Some but not a lot. USATF Level 1 is a superficial overview of everything. I can roughly describe hammer throw now. How useful.

Experience (prior as an athlete) and just on-the-job experience are the usual training that HS coaches have. Sure a degree in exercise physiology or something is great but unrealistic.

Seminars, networking, reading is great too. (But some of the books out there are not that helpful honestly.)

Really, for distance runners, its not brain surgery.

Also agree that avoiding hard surfaces is ideal but often unrealistic. Any sensible coach will seek out trails or specify trails for weekend/long/off season running. In season, some schools just dont have options.

I saw this post and felt it might be helpful to respond to it having been through the coaching education program.

There are a lot of great options through USATF.

For example USATF has an on line campus with several helpful and reasonable certifications. The courses with Christine Brooks are fantastic. If you E-mail her with a question about something within her lectures she will respond quickly with a very thorough explanation. Also, the on-line class with Joe Vigil would be helpful for any inexperienced distance coach.

If you have taken the level 1 course it opens up other options. I agree that it just touches on what you need to know but I feel like it is important for coaches to have that base knowledge if they are looking to take the next step.

The XC certification offered through USATF was pretty amazing. I was lucky enough to take this through Joe Vigil.

Level 2 is excellent and expensive but worth it. If you are able to do it there is a sports science section you will have to pass both on-line and in a test section they have you take when you arrive at the level 2 school. They make sure that you know the material. You do a group project and after the week you are tested again on the material learned through the week. You can also learn quite a bit from others you are taking the course with

Level 3 is more intense in the sense that you are in the company of coaches training athletes at a very high level. There is an international feel to it as the certification carries a level 5 IAAF certification along with it and many of your fellow coaches and instructors are often from around the world. You create a 6 month program with a chosen athlete and are evaluated on it.

Having been through the coaching education system at every level I realize that not everyone has the resources to follow through with the full range of certifications. But, as I said the on-line stuff is really worth it and very reasonable. I would recommend anyone give it a shot.

A little off topic but somewhat related is that I think coaches need to be able to explain why their athletes are doing certain workouts and training. They need to explain what physiological benefits are being developed. There is so much information out there then there used to be and it's really easy for athletes to get distracted by it. If you can explain in detail what adaptations you are shooting for both athletes and sometimes even their parents will have more confidence in your coaching abilities.

I agree that it is not brain surgery but if you do not have the basic understand of something like the energy systems it makes it difficult to put the all the ingredients in the right order. That being said there are a lot of good coaches out there that have been very successful without understanding the science behind what they are doing. But, I still feel the coaching education piece makes things a lot easier for many reasons especially when dealing with skeptical athletes and parents.

You seem to have a lot of experience as a runner and a parent so I’d like to ask your opinion regarding long runs. My son runs both track and XC and is doing very well for a freshman. He really pushes himself hard and is now exhibiting over-training symptoms particularly after long runs which are Wednesdays about 12 miles. I do plan to take him to get his vitamin levels checked. Another XC senior told me his track coach forbid him to run more than 8 miles on the long runs because it could mess with his track times. This decrease in long run mileage has not hurt his race time for XC, in fact, he is now faster than the majority of the team. Do you believe long runs need to be 12-13 miles for a 5k and if so, why? It doesn’t make sense to me. If anything I would think 5-6 at a faster speed would be better for increasing speed. I appreciate your advice.

well how much running experience does that kid have? does he only run when he's on cross country or does he run year round? I don't understand why someone would want to do cross country if they don't have the desire to run on their own the rest of the year..

You didn't mention whether your son ran summer mileage but 17:40 shows some ability.

You've got some legitimate and not so legitimate complaints but two things (highlighted in bold) stick out from your post: He is a freshman, tell him not to "give his all" in practice. He's got time to figure out how to break through mental and physical barriers over the next 4 years. All he needs to do is what is prescribed without the extra effort - sounds like the volume is more than enough anyway. Secondly, don't be mad at the XC comment because, distance running is a tough sport and it most definitely isn't for everyone. If you do it right; it will test your mental fortitude, make you question your existence, swear at your God(s), but if your son comes out the other side he will be infinitely better for it.

Some pointers in dealing with your son's coaches; get to know them, tell them that you feel lucky that one of them has college XC experience, find out what their philosophy is, ask them if they need any help (even if you're time constraint you may be able to help in other ways), etc.

After developing a relationship with them, let them know that your son, possible to his detriment, likes to "give his all" in everything he does, to the point of exhaustion.

To reiterate, you are lucky you've got hardcore coaches for a hardcore sport. Tell your son to take a chill pill and not compete in practices or long runs - tell him, in his freshman year a C is good enough (he doesn't need to be earn an A in everything he does). Try to limit his perceived effort to less than 80% - just get through this year uninjured. No homework passes - the beauty of being a student athlete is it makes your kid and you better manage your time. Try to convince the coaches to limit his long run to 20% of weekly mileage (this will be your task in buttering up to the coaches).

Have Fun competing. In this life there are very few opportunities to overtly compete against your fellow man. No teammates to run for you, no time outs, just mano a mano, lace 'em up and see who's best. After the race, you can go back to your normal lives, but when in the protective cocoon of competition it's all about what is best in life? "To crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!"

Hi Jefe,

Yes, he ran all summer and through the winter months. He used to be a little over weight when he was in 3rd grade and we trained together for his first 5k. He was hooked. He ran track and XC in 7th and 8th and grew tall and too lean. He had difficulty breathing after competitions, he would turn ashen and throw up after every meet. He almost passed out a few times. As a mom it was terrifying to observe. We discovered when we saw his ribs he had a deformed left and right rib cage, he was diagnosed with Pectus Caranatum and Excavatum. He was fitted with a new chest brace developed in Argentina and it is designed to even out the bones by pressing on the chest. Since wearing it he has improved and has not had any issues with vomiting after meets. He still complains of breathing trouble here and there. I can’t help but wonder if his condition is contributing to his fatigue. He doesn’t want to be different or catered to, he wants the hard runs and enjoys the challenge. His self esteem has improved but he is very hard on himself. I agree, he does need to chill with academics and practices, hopefully I can convince him. I do think the coaches have great potential but they really need to work on communication with parents. The XC runner has a very high level of expectations and frequently uses phrases such as “finish strong or be lazy.” It reminds me of an army drill sergeant. I do take photos of the team and plan to share them. The organized coach told the spaghetti dinner mom “You cannot send an email without my permission.” This woman is twice her age and promptly quit. So they do need to work on a few things. So many parents are complaining to the AD and school staff it’s gotten pretty ugly. I think a parent coach meeting would help open up communication face to face rather than sending email after email. Thank you for all of your advice, it was helpful and I do plan to set up a casual meeting to talk to them about son’s issues and hopefully resolve some of them.

You know how they talk about helicopter parenting? You're doing it now. You need to back off and give your son a chance to find his own solutions, even if he makes some mistakes along the way. Especially in HS athletics, there are few to no long-term consequences for making the wrong choice your freshman year. There's no bad grade on your transcript. So support your son. Go watch him race, cheer and clap, and tell him how great he looked afterwards. That's all you need to do. Let him figure things out. Don't interfere. His XC season will be over in 3 weeks anyway.

12-13 mile long runs for 9th graders in my opinion is too far. My 18 year old 3:51 1500m runner has never run further than 17k. Today I watched one of my 14 year old athletes run 4:28 for 1500m off 4 training sessions after a winter of playing Aussie Rules football. Every athlete is different.

As every athletes is different, I would suspect that your young coaches are overly enthusiastic and firm believers in volume. My experience is that specificity and training smart are much more important.

One of the key ways that I develop aerobic endurance is by the weekend double. This includes a 40-45 minute progressive run on Saturday and a longer easier run on Sunday of 50-60 minutes. This type of training has allowed a 16 year old boy to run 1:55/4:02 for 800/1500m and his weekly volume was around 30 miles a week.

Please don't get caught up in volume. You must get your child to be an efficient mover. Now that is the art that your coaches need to nurture. How good does your son look running? How efficient is he when running fast? Once you have those as cornerstones you can build and develop a champion.

Good luck!

It’s funny, you sound very similar to his coach. Telling a parent to “back off” especially a concerned parent seeking knowledge and advice from experienced coaches and other parents is backing off - I’m not complaining to my son or his coaches, yet trying to educate myself so I have a better understanding of what is normal training for XC runners. I do “watch him race, and cheer and clap, and tell him how great he is afterwards” I wouldn’t miss him run for the world, but that’s not “all I need to do” as a parent. My job doesn’t end there. In fact, he has to miss practice tomorrow which he hates to do because his chest surgeon needs to adjust his chest brace he is required to wear at all other times other than while running. I have additional responsibilities as a parent, and when is see that he’s not happy, not like he was prior to the season, when he can’t hold his head up at dinner, when he has physical issues that require correcting with doctors, it’s my job to help him fix all of those issues. I’m not going to stop parenting until he’s 18, but I will and do give him the space he needs to figure some things out on his own. I do cheer and clap as you suggest but that’s not all a parent is supposed to do. And yes, his season will be over in 3 weeks as you do know, what a sad relief for many parents.

Thank you, coahc, I appreciate your knowledge and advice, it has been very helpful.

How big of a team is it? Do they have training groups (A - Varsity Boys, B- Faster JV Boys + faster girls, C - slower JV, D- new runners)? Do all the kids run the same workout? Would your kid want to move to a slower/easier group?

coahc wrote:

One of the key ways that I develop aerobic endurance is by the weekend double. This includes a 40-45 minute progressive run on Saturday and a longer easier run on Sunday of 50-60 minutes. This type of training has allowed a 16 year old boy to run 1:55/4:02 for 800/1500m and his weekly volume was around 30 miles a week.

Please don't get caught up in volume. You must get your child to be an efficient mover. Now that is the art that your coaches need to nurture. How good does your son look running? How efficient is he when running fast? Once you have those as cornerstones you can build and develop a champion.

Good luck!

I agree with you that teaching kids to move efficiently is key to running fast but, for a group of kids of average ability, no amount of form training will help them compete with more talented kids. HS cross country is one of the few sports where a group of kids with average ability but above average determination and drive can overcome of team of talented underachievers. For an aerobic sport like distance running determination + drive = volume.

I've never understood this sport's aversion to volume. Lack of volume can be as destructive to the long term development of a HS athlete as too much volume. Why limit the ceiling of low to average athletes who want to compete?

Now I think this can be achieved with an annual progression of 35 to 40 mpw for freshmen, 40 to 50 for sophomores, 50 to 60 for Juniors and 60 to 70 for Seniors (I don't think that more than 70 mpw in the base phase is necessary for most if not all HS runners but there are always exceptions to every rule). It sounds like the coaches in question are exceeding these time tested volume levels. That is a problem. Anything less than that and you're likely not giving all your runners the opportunity to be competitive.

I always hear the age old desire of HS XC coaches who want to avoid burn out in their athletes so they stick to a low mileage plan. When that plan fails to produce competitive results their answer is, "well at least they didn't burn out." What of the frustrated senior that hasn't improved dramatically since their sophomore year? It's not likely they'll ever run again either. At least give the kids the opportunity to achieve something that they, and likely all around them, never thought was possible.

At 30 mpw you're likely holding back a majority of athletes so that the talented ones can show them that they're a donkey and not a thoroughbred. There is nothing more satisfying in this sport when a team of donkeys overcome a team of thoroughbreds.

Good points. Some of my athletes do have significant volume totals but as you would be aware jumping to arbitrary numbers never work for everyone. I recently had a 18 year old female coming to me from a soccer background and by slowing increasing her volume from 30-70 miles a week she has gone on to run 16:09/33:47 for 5k and 10k track times.

Yes you are correct I am lucky to work with very talented athletes. Ultimately they come to me with their goals and we design and prescribe training to reach their goals. That is really what it is about. I have a 14 year old girl who ran her first 800m yesterday in 2:22 but during the spring and summer she will also doing rowing for her school thus I will probably see her only 2 times for running at most. Another one of my females ran 4:32 and was playing Netball at the same time and ran only 4-5 times per week.

Now how do my athletes perform at the NCAA level? Female 8x National Championships in JUCO and one of my males numerous All Conference and All Regional performances in XC and Track.

My program allows LTAD as I get athletes that come to me at 13 and with patience they can enjoy the sport and ultimately run very fast. And if their lucky they can schools have like Columbia and Stanford wanting them to run for their schools.

Cheers

Your athletes are lucky to have you. Now if we could get some of the coaches in the US to adopt a more critical thinking mentality when it comes to training HS athletes we'd all be better off. Rather what seems to happen is that a coach with limited ability or success sees a parent or other coaches as a threat to their "authority".

otter wrote:

There are a lot of great options through USATF.

For example USATF has an on line campus with several helpful and reasonable certifications. The courses with Christine Brooks are fantastic. If you E-mail her with a question about something within her lectures she will respond quickly with a very thorough explanation. Also, the on-line class with Joe Vigil would be helpful for any inexperienced distance coach.

Coach, thanks for all the helpful info! I'm hoping to start coaching high school in the next couple years and have been looking for resources to help educate myself. I've been running since I was a freshman in high school (27 years ago!), but just because you can train yourself, doesn't mean you can train others. I'm excited to learn more and am going to sign up for the Vigil online course and go from there. Do you have any books that you recommend?

Thanks!

I can understand many of the concerns in this thread. I believe that there may be a somewhat simple solution. However I am not sure how the legality of what I'm about to suggest would work. The cross country season usually starts in late August early September here in the Northeast Coinciding with the beginning of the School year. The season usually ends in late October to early November depending on those athletes that qualify for sectionals, and state championships etc. Which really only gives a coach and his/her athletes about 2 and a half maybe 3 months to prepare for and execute the season. Now I can tell you as an experienced runner and someone who runs almost daily that 2 to 3 months of training for distance running (which is exactly what cross country is) is definitely NOT enough time to safely get in proper training for a usually hilly 5k run. [Here in the Northeast most high schools run a 5k course] The way it's set up for these young student athletes is definitely inviting injury. In my opinion if you want to be good at distance running you need to train year round. And if you want to avoid injuries you should train year round along with strength training and proper diet and sleep schedules. You throw a kid out there with little to no experience and you're asking for trouble. So, why not have a running club at the school designed for year round training. A club where anyone could run regardless of what sports they are interested in. If you want to run cross country in the fall great you don't have to but the students would have the option to decide. Just not sure if schools or school districts would have that kind of budget or if they would be legally responsible for any injuries that might occur as a result outside of cross country season. With all these specialized sports clubs popping up for youth and high school athletes why not one for coss county and running in general. My wife and I payed big bucks for my son to go to a wrestling program outside of his high school program and we did the same for our daughter's soccer. They both went on to participate in their respective sports in college. So why not one for running? Maybe there are some opening up but not in our area. If you can find something like that and your son or daughter really wants to run cross country then you should seriously consider it. One of the many reasons why the African runners are the best in the world when it comes to distance running is that they train year round. Many starting out running to and from school. By the time they are high school aged their bodies are better prepared for the unique demands of distance running. So, it's probably not the coach. Unless the coach is having them run crazy mileage. But if the athlete was better prepared perhaps they would not get injured.

The grumpy moody falling asleep is something that i think is decently normal amping high school distance guys. If he’s a 17:40 freshmen they’re doing something right. A 13 mile long run for a 17:40 runner isn’t absurd if they have some milage under their belt. Did he run a decent amount in middle school? If he’s not getting injured, this doesn’t sound terrible, just higher milage than some schools.

Sure the coaches should be more flexible though. If I go to my coach like “hey, didn’t sleep well last night and the legs are kinda cooked” he’d be like, “alright, let’s cut it from 6 to 4 reps for you and make the cooldown longer”. That’s how i think a good coach would respond to a situation like that. Have the kid talk to them about it, not you.

You bumped a 3-year thread that revealed a lot.

Much of the advice given was useless.

The OP's daughter was being over-trained. It was not even close.

Seminars may improve a coach's knowledge, but does not qualify to coach the event.

There are some great HS coaches.

These coaches are usually better than almost any college coach.

These coaches have little chance of getting jobs at good colleges without years in the coaching mill.

Outside of the great HS coaches, the quality of coaching in HS can drop fairly quickly.

I was fortunate to have one of the best HS coaches. Not so unusual in the state, as the state had several top HS coaches, so that athletes in the state were ranked very high in the nation, and the CC teams were always ranked at the top or near the top.

My college coaches were much worse than the HS coach, and the 1st college coach was so poor that he was quickly out of coaching.

I would be interested in what percentage of NCAA head coaches are middle-distance or distance coaches. I'm betting that it is a low percentage.

Girls don't have the testosterone of boys. Have to be trained differently when coming in as freshman, and sophomore year as well.

The exception seems to be when the girl was trained for several years prior to HS. Knew such a girl, her mother drove her to be coached by our HS coach, so we watched her workout in 7th and 8th grade. Real talent, got 2nd in mile (just over 5 min) and 1st in 2-mile in state meet as a freshman.

Mileage is the poor coach's answer to being competitive.

30-40 mpw for fresh and soph, done on grass with few exceptions. That is fresh-soph.

40-50 for varsity, done on grass with few exceptions.

Our track, as it were, was dirt-sand, so all the intervals were not on a hard surface, and run in training shoes. Our team only ran in spikes when going to a meet that had a track. And we won, and won, and won.

Some odd statements in here presented as facts....”there are some great HS coaches....these coaches are usually better than almost all college coaches”...huh? And this one...”girls have to be trained differently when coming in as freshman, sophomore year as well”.

Could you elaborate? My observations are a bit different.

Why?

Find a state with nationally-ranked CC and middle-distance and distance programs, year-in-and-year-out.

Iowa is not it.

As for sprints? Texas and CA. Maybe some in FL, but not like Texas and CA. Texas 6A HS state championship 4 x 400m is typically amazing. I don't remember the divisions when in I was in HS, but any time of 3:10 or faster in the mile relay was almost always Texas or CA HS.

As for university coaches in middle-distance or distance?

If you had the good fortune to have a really great college coach--not some Div II or Div III program, but Div I--please share.