What do you think of Alistair Browlee able to run a 10k in 29'30" after 1.5km of swimming and 50km of biking with only a few running sessions each week (but with biking and swimming sessions)?
Would he improve notably on 10k by following a specific running schedule (compared to his current time without the swimming and biking part) ?
He typically runs 8 or 9 times a week, as do all short distance triathletes at that level.
2:04XX Marathoner afka 0/1. wrote:
The secret to my success was crosstraining - I did a pogostick workout up a steep incline with a weighted vest (40KG) 2x a week. When you're in peak form you can also add a parachute.
You might like to add ankle weights too, 5 kg per leg. Don't forget the KT tape for maximum pseudoscience.
ja make a fan wrote:
Lance Armstrong said in a Nike commercial something like.. "what am I on? I'm on my bike training 6 hours a day."
so there you have it.
Yeah, but it turned out he was actually on anabolic steroids, EPO, growth hormone etc. So it is kind of hard to believe what he said.
Pass me the Kombucha wrote:
Obviously the turning is super important, so being on the cross bike is always key. I'd say at least 1-2 just skill sessions a week. But-your starts and your V02 is also really important. It's hard for a lot of amateurs to understand this, they say, "it's impossible my field is so huge, I can never move up". But...you can always move up if you hit gaps right.
Story time, haven't raced cross in a year, so UCI points are gone. Back row start, I slide back about 5 feet so I'm legit last, lights go and boom. Hit the gaps right and by 3 laps I went from 70ish to front group.
With that said. 20 minute warm up, then 10 mins at light tempo. Then 6-8 x 90 second starts (legit find a 90 second course with turns. Foot down to start. 30 second sprint, then 1 minute at first lap pace (above race pace). This would be more like a Tuesday workout. Nothing crazy, just keep systems online. 3-5 mins full recovery.
Hard workout for Wednesday- 20 minute warm up. Then 10 mins at light tempo. Then 6 sets of 2 mins at above threshold. So for me at like 63 kg, I'd do like 360-380 for 2 minutes, then 1 minute at high threshold. So like 420 for me, then 30 seconds full gas. Cut the recovery down to 3 minutes. That really helps you work with the transition paces needed in cyclocross.
I started coaching last year, so if you're interested in a coach I can direct you to my contact. Just leave an email.
This is great stuff, thank you for sharing.
Coach Cookie wrote:
Great stuff here.
Did you ever get offered any doping drugs? EPO? Cortisone?
This reminds me of a story I heard -- my friend was one of the top cyclists in the US, and when his star was rising (winning pro races, doing well at the national championships, etc) he was thinking about racing on one of the big teams in Europe. Apparently one of the managers of the UCI WorldTeams (or whatever it was called back then) had heard about him and thought about checking him out, but decided not to because he was "too smart" (the kid had graduated from one of the top undergraduate institutions in the US). It was never clear to us exactly what this meant, but we suspect the concern was that he wouldn't have been desperate enough to be interested in the shadier aspects of the sport.
Read Phil Gaimon's book "Pro Cycling on $10 a Day" to get a look at how a pro cyclist actually trains.
Pass me the Kombucha wrote:
disgraceful_admin wrote:What was your power progression the first months/3months/6months/year? How many hrs a week were you putting in?
What was your biggest strength/weakness at those points? What kind of course/workouts would you beat guys that would drop you elsewhere?
Did you ever race on a bike before that first year? Did you ever ride a road bike with clipped/clipless?
Power progression went like this-Injury last year of college, hop on bike.
Year 1- 1st power test at 20 minutes was around 330 watts 62kg. So pretty decent. End of the season, around 355 would have been my guess. Cat 4-1 this year. Never went over 14 hours this year. Mostly 10-14. Biggest weakness was tactics. Biggest strength was fitness from running.
Year 2- First year at the cat 1/pro level- in February did around 350, by June I would say I was in around 365 shape. Never went over 18 hours this year. Mostly 15s. Biggest weakness was lack of mileage. Biggest strength was my lack of recognition which allowed me to not be marked.
Year 3- First year as a pro. Only did one test, 379. Never went over 21 hours this year. Mostly 15-17 a week. Biggest weakness was time trials. Biggest strength was being consistent/ hard races.
Year 4- 2nd year pro. Started legit winter lifting program (This year) 395 at 63kg. 5 mins went up to 465 watts from 450 in 2014. Never went over 28 hours. Mostly was between 15-22. Biggest weakness was racing in the freezing rain. Biggest strength was uphill hard races.
Overall my biggest weakness would be time trial. Only ever have been able to manage 1 top 20 in a UCI event. But I can hold my own with GC guys.
Strengths- really hard hilly races, uphill finishes, and the most surprising hard criteriums.
Also, to the poster who asked me why I'm on letsrun. I was a degenerate collegiate runner who loves the site. I guess I never broke the habit. I don't enjoy visiting cycling forums or websites. Just can't get into it, I hate reading the articles to tell you the truth.
And finally, I mountain biked a little bit in high school. I would attribute my success to cycling sort of like musicians who can teach themselves to play an instrument. Don't get me wrong, I'm still new and have a lot to learn. But coming out of the start I was pretty good at reading the races and making the results happen. Hope that helps.
Surprised to hear that TTs are a weakness for you. I'm also a former collegiate runner, and I just finished my first full season of racing as a cat 2 and 1 good race away from upgrading to cat 1. I've always had pretty good results in TTs and thought my running background played a big part in that.
Also I second the fact that no cycling forums can match the entertainment of letsrun.
i chose D2 wrote:
Pass me the Kombucha wrote:Power progression went like this-Injury last year of college, hop on bike.
Year 1- 1st power test at 20 minutes was around 330 watts 62kg. So pretty decent. End of the season, around 355 would have been my guess. Cat 4-1 this year. Never went over 14 hours this year. Mostly 10-14. Biggest weakness was tactics. Biggest strength was fitness from running.
Year 2- First year at the cat 1/pro level- in February did around 350, by June I would say I was in around 365 shape. Never went over 18 hours this year. Mostly 15s. Biggest weakness was lack of mileage. Biggest strength was my lack of recognition which allowed me to not be marked.
Year 3- First year as a pro. Only did one test, 379. Never went over 21 hours this year. Mostly 15-17 a week. Biggest weakness was time trials. Biggest strength was being consistent/ hard races.
Year 4- 2nd year pro. Started legit winter lifting program (This year) 395 at 63kg. 5 mins went up to 465 watts from 450 in 2014. Never went over 28 hours. Mostly was between 15-22. Biggest weakness was racing in the freezing rain. Biggest strength was uphill hard races.
Overall my biggest weakness would be time trial. Only ever have been able to manage 1 top 20 in a UCI event. But I can hold my own with GC guys.
Strengths- really hard hilly races, uphill finishes, and the most surprising hard criteriums.
Also, to the poster who asked me why I'm on letsrun. I was a degenerate collegiate runner who loves the site. I guess I never broke the habit. I don't enjoy visiting cycling forums or websites. Just can't get into it, I hate reading the articles to tell you the truth.
And finally, I mountain biked a little bit in high school. I would attribute my success to cycling sort of like musicians who can teach themselves to play an instrument. Don't get me wrong, I'm still new and have a lot to learn. But coming out of the start I was pretty good at reading the races and making the results happen. Hope that helps.
Surprised to hear that TTs are a weakness for you. I'm also a former collegiate runner, and I just finished my first full season of racing as a cat 2 and 1 good race away from upgrading to cat 1. I've always had pretty good results in TTs and thought my running background played a big part in that.
Also I second the fact that no cycling forums can match the entertainment of letsrun.
Keep in mind he's 63 kilos - how many are you?
Also, would you mind answering the same questions he answered above? I'm sure many on here will appreciate it and who knows - maybe you'll inspire some others.
Would be interesting to see how many more ~pro cyclists chime in on here too.
By the way, thanks for the detailed responses Kombucha! Are there any workouts/weeks/routines in particular that you feel were particularly helpful for your progression? Anything unintuitive that you found helped?
67 kilos 6'3"
First year I had been riding 6-10 hours in the previous fall (no prior cycling experience other than riding around the block as a kid), then ran during the winter, then started riding casually again in the spring. Hopped in a few races for fun and I was hooked. Started training seriously mid-May 12-15 hours a week. Cat 5-> cat 3. Compared to the guys I was racing against, climbing was a huge strength, was decent at the few TTs I did, and sprinting was a huge weakness - I came to the line solo for all 7 of my wins. TOwards the endo of the season, had my VO2 max measured at 72 on the bike (IT was 75 running my senoir year).
In the fall went back to XC running for fun and then started offseason cycling training in late November. 3-5 hrs/wk weight training/running/yoga November-January + 8-12 hrs riding. Had to come into the season strong for the collegiate season which runs March-May. Typically 15-18 hrs/wk, biggest week was 21. Tuesday Night Worlds, intervals thursday, weekend race or long ride was pretty typical schedule. Added in Wednesday night crits during the summer for back-to-back-to-back hard days. This year was a huge learning experience as far as race tactics go, especially in collegiate racing, which I think was huge for my development. I found that I am better at short (
less than 3km) climbs than longer ones. Sprint still leaves some to be desired, but saw huge improvement, and I continued to have good results in TTs on pretty much any distance and terrain.
Power numbers at the end of this year:
1s: 1190
10s: 1089
1m: 615
5m: 420
20m: 367
60m: 331
Definitely nowhere near Kombucha's level, but hope to be there soon.
I've heard that cycling is about half as effective at aerobic exercise than running, given the same effort level.
So a 3/4 hour cycle is like a 1:30/2:00 run. Also remember that Lance was basically an ultramarathoner. The training for the Tour de France has no relevance to like a track 5000m.
800ftw. wrote:
I've heard that cycling is about half as effective at aerobic exercise than running, given the same effort level.
So a 3/4 hour cycle is like a 1:30/2:00 run. Also remember that Lance was basically an ultramarathoner. The training for the Tour de France has no relevance to like a track 5000m.
you mad bro
bromadcycle wrote:
800ftw. wrote:I've heard that cycling is about half as effective at aerobic exercise than running, given the same effort level.
So a 3/4 hour cycle is like a 1:30/2:00 run. Also remember that Lance was basically an ultramarathoner. The training for the Tour de France has no relevance to like a track 5000m.
you mad bro
I don't understand
Awesome to see some interest here. As far as the doping, I'll be completely honest with everyone-I've never personally seen anyone do it. I've never been offered. But my teammates have been offered in Europe with 3-5 days of being there at times. The sport is F*cked. I get paid decent, way better than Phil Gaimon was on $10 a day, I race and know Phil personally. But, it's not like I'm going to pay off my house in cash. Next year races are growing, but teams are folding. The US scene gets looked down upon by some Europeans, but the US is extremely strong talent wise, just a different style of racing. Regardless, Euro pros do not come here and win easily. It's a shame, because the model of the sport (sponsorship) isn't the most sustainable aspect. Similar to what runners face. I really hope things can change, as it's such a beautiful sport.
As far as my Time Trials, I'm 63kg. It's not from the lack of suffering that I'm not the best, or WPKG, it has everything to do with weight. So if you do the math, WPKG don't matter nearly as much on flat roads. It's a lot about speed and aerodynamics. My major improvement came when our bike company tested me in the wind tunnel. I made some pretty big gains here. My CDA (drag numbers) dropped, but I'm a macro adjuster, which means my body just follows what the front end does, so really I won't bring down my CDA by tucking any differently. Therefore I'm only really successful when the time trials are hilly or rolling.
Power progression
1second- 1567
10 seconds-1003
1 minute-730
5 minutes-465
10-420-430ish
20 mins-395ish
1 hour- 35x
As far as progression. Personally, endurance will help anyone, but the biggest thing for me is quality over quantity. Really difficult 3 hour days with 1-1.5 hours of extremely focused work is what I need to get to the highest level. Don't get caught into the trap that you need to be on your bike 20 hours a wee every week. Especially at lower level racing.
Also, confidence. I know it sounds so stupid, but being confident and trusting in your training. Take easy days super super easy. Don't feel bad about taking a day or two off if you're tired! Never try to push through a tweak or twinge that doesn't feel right. You're not going to lose fitness that fast. 3-4 days off is a lot better than overdoing something. Hell even take 1 day off a week.
Tire selection. Corsa CX race tubulars are the best 25mm. 94 rear 93 front PSI.
Don't scoff at aluminum bikes if you're just starting up. They're cheaper and super stiff.
Don't hammer every single ride. Hammer when you should, and when it's right. Don't just always go out and push hard when you want to push hard. Have a reasoning behind what you're doing.
As far as biggest improvement. It would be the easy days. I never took enough easy days running in college. If I could go back and shake myself silly I would. Things would have turned out differently maybe.
If you have any more questions just ask. This is fun.
Pass me the Kombucha wrote:
Awesome to see some interest here. As far as the doping, I'll be completely honest with everyone-I've never personally seen anyone do it. I've never been offered. But my teammates have been offered in Europe with 3-5 days of being there at times. The sport is F*cked. I get paid decent, way better than Phil Gaimon was on $10 a day, I race and know Phil personally. But, it's not like I'm going to pay off my house in cash. Next year races are growing, but teams are folding. The US scene gets looked down upon by some Europeans, but the US is extremely strong talent wise, just a different style of racing. Regardless, Euro pros do not come here and win easily. It's a shame, because the model of the sport (sponsorship) isn't the most sustainable aspect. Similar to what runners face. I really hope things can change, as it's such a beautiful sport.
As far as my Time Trials, I'm 63kg. It's not from the lack of suffering that I'm not the best, or WPKG, it has everything to do with weight. So if you do the math, WPKG don't matter nearly as much on flat roads. It's a lot about speed and aerodynamics. My major improvement came when our bike company tested me in the wind tunnel. I made some pretty big gains here. My CDA (drag numbers) dropped, but I'm a macro adjuster, which means my body just follows what the front end does, so really I won't bring down my CDA by tucking any differently. Therefore I'm only really successful when the time trials are hilly or rolling.
Power progression
1second- 1567
10 seconds-1003
1 minute-730
5 minutes-465
10-420-430ish
20 mins-395ish
1 hour- 35x
As far as progression. Personally, endurance will help anyone, but the biggest thing for me is quality over quantity. Really difficult 3 hour days with 1-1.5 hours of extremely focused work is what I need to get to the highest level. Don't get caught into the trap that you need to be on your bike 20 hours a wee every week. Especially at lower level racing.
Also, confidence. I know it sounds so stupid, but being confident and trusting in your training. Take easy days super super easy. Don't feel bad about taking a day or two off if you're tired! Never try to push through a tweak or twinge that doesn't feel right. You're not going to lose fitness that fast. 3-4 days off is a lot better than overdoing something. Hell even take 1 day off a week.
Tire selection. Corsa CX race tubulars are the best 25mm. 94 rear 93 front PSI.
Don't scoff at aluminum bikes if you're just starting up. They're cheaper and super stiff.
Don't hammer every single ride. Hammer when you should, and when it's right. Don't just always go out and push hard when you want to push hard. Have a reasoning behind what you're doing.
As far as biggest improvement. It would be the easy days. I never took enough easy days running in college. If I could go back and shake myself silly I would. Things would have turned out differently maybe.
If you have any more questions just ask. This is fun.
Thanks so much for the comments. I'm just getting into cycling and am of course nowhere near your level, but I can associate with much of what you've said.
Particularly, the keep the easy days super-super easy. I also feel like a real quality 3-5 hr workout can carry me for quite a while. When you're out there for hours a day it become a lot more pressing to have a good reason for every workout and every ride. Whereas we can go out and run whatever for an hour without even noticing.
I'm going to think of some more interesting questions later on. In the meantime, hopefully we'll hear from some others.
Did you train with power often during your first year? How did you adapt to the pedaling motion - could you naturally just relax and spin or did you find yourself straining against the pedals for a while?
As a pro now, what would you have changed about your progression, if anything?
Pass me the Kombucha wrote:
Awesome to see some interest here. As far as the doping, I'll be completely honest with everyone-I've never personally seen anyone do it. I've never been offered. But my teammates have been offered in Europe with 3-5 days of being there at times. The sport is F*cked. I get paid decent, way better than Phil Gaimon was on $10 a day, I race and know Phil personally. But, it's not like I'm going to pay off my house in cash. Next year races are growing, but teams are folding. The US scene gets looked down upon by some Europeans, but the US is extremely strong talent wise, just a different style of racing. Regardless, Euro pros do not come here and win easily. It's a shame, because the model of the sport (sponsorship) isn't the most sustainable aspect. Similar to what runners face. I really hope things can change, as it's such a beautiful sport.
As far as my Time Trials, I'm 63kg. It's not from the lack of suffering that I'm not the best, or WPKG, it has everything to do with weight. So if you do the math, WPKG don't matter nearly as much on flat roads. It's a lot about speed and aerodynamics. My major improvement came when our bike company tested me in the wind tunnel. I made some pretty big gains here. My CDA (drag numbers) dropped, but I'm a macro adjuster, which means my body just follows what the front end does, so really I won't bring down my CDA by tucking any differently. Therefore I'm only really successful when the time trials are hilly or rolling.
Power progression
1second- 1567
10 seconds-1003
1 minute-730
5 minutes-465
10-420-430ish
20 mins-395ish
1 hour- 35x
As far as progression. Personally, endurance will help anyone, but the biggest thing for me is quality over quantity. Really difficult 3 hour days with 1-1.5 hours of extremely focused work is what I need to get to the highest level. Don't get caught into the trap that you need to be on your bike 20 hours a wee every week. Especially at lower level racing.
Also, confidence. I know it sounds so stupid, but being confident and trusting in your training. Take easy days super super easy. Don't feel bad about taking a day or two off if you're tired! Never try to push through a tweak or twinge that doesn't feel right. You're not going to lose fitness that fast. 3-4 days off is a lot better than overdoing something. Hell even take 1 day off a week.
Tire selection. Corsa CX race tubulars are the best 25mm. 94 rear 93 front PSI.
Don't scoff at aluminum bikes if you're just starting up. They're cheaper and super stiff.
Don't hammer every single ride. Hammer when you should, and when it's right. Don't just always go out and push hard when you want to push hard. Have a reasoning behind what you're doing.
As far as biggest improvement. It would be the easy days. I never took enough easy days running in college. If I could go back and shake myself silly I would. Things would have turned out differently maybe.
If you have any more questions just ask. This is fun.
All your posts have been extremely interesting - thank you!
disgraceful_admin wrote:
Pass me the Kombucha wrote:Awesome to see some interest here. As far as the doping, I'll be completely honest with everyone-I've never personally seen anyone do it. I've never been offered. But my teammates have been offered in Europe with 3-5 days of being there at times. The sport is F*cked. I get paid decent, way better than Phil Gaimon was on $10 a day, I race and know Phil personally. But, it's not like I'm going to pay off my house in cash. Next year races are growing, but teams are folding. The US scene gets looked down upon by some Europeans, but the US is extremely strong talent wise, just a different style of racing. Regardless, Euro pros do not come here and win easily. It's a shame, because the model of the sport (sponsorship) isn't the most sustainable aspect. Similar to what runners face. I really hope things can change, as it's such a beautiful sport.
As far as my Time Trials, I'm 63kg. It's not from the lack of suffering that I'm not the best, or WPKG, it has everything to do with weight. So if you do the math, WPKG don't matter nearly as much on flat roads. It's a lot about speed and aerodynamics. My major improvement came when our bike company tested me in the wind tunnel. I made some pretty big gains here. My CDA (drag numbers) dropped, but I'm a macro adjuster, which means my body just follows what the front end does, so really I won't bring down my CDA by tucking any differently. Therefore I'm only really successful when the time trials are hilly or rolling.
Power progression
1second- 1567
10 seconds-1003
1 minute-730
5 minutes-465
10-420-430ish
20 mins-395ish
1 hour- 35x
As far as progression. Personally, endurance will help anyone, but the biggest thing for me is quality over quantity. Really difficult 3 hour days with 1-1.5 hours of extremely focused work is what I need to get to the highest level. Don't get caught into the trap that you need to be on your bike 20 hours a wee every week. Especially at lower level racing.
Also, confidence. I know it sounds so stupid, but being confident and trusting in your training. Take easy days super super easy. Don't feel bad about taking a day or two off if you're tired! Never try to push through a tweak or twinge that doesn't feel right. You're not going to lose fitness that fast. 3-4 days off is a lot better than overdoing something. Hell even take 1 day off a week.
Tire selection. Corsa CX race tubulars are the best 25mm. 94 rear 93 front PSI.
Don't scoff at aluminum bikes if you're just starting up. They're cheaper and super stiff.
Don't hammer every single ride. Hammer when you should, and when it's right. Don't just always go out and push hard when you want to push hard. Have a reasoning behind what you're doing.
As far as biggest improvement. It would be the easy days. I never took enough easy days running in college. If I could go back and shake myself silly I would. Things would have turned out differently maybe.
If you have any more questions just ask. This is fun.
Thanks so much for the comments. I'm just getting into cycling and am of course nowhere near your level, but I can associate with much of what you've said.
Particularly, the keep the easy days super-super easy. I also feel like a real quality 3-5 hr workout can carry me for quite a while. When you're out there for hours a day it become a lot more pressing to have a good reason for every workout and every ride. Whereas we can go out and run whatever for an hour without even noticing.
I'm going to think of some more interesting questions later on. In the meantime, hopefully we'll hear from some others.
Did you train with power often during your first year? How did you adapt to the pedaling motion - could you naturally just relax and spin or did you find yourself straining against the pedals for a while?
As a pro now, what would you have changed about your progression, if anything?
First 4 months I was a strava and hammer kind of guy. I finally had power the winter of my cat 4 road season. Power isn't the end all be all. But it keeps you from going too hard and it keeps you from going too easy. It's easily the best training tool besides a gps.
As far as the pedal question. That's a really great question, and until now- I haven't really thought about it. But surprisingly, when I first hopped on the bike. I was a pedal masher, and I loved standing when climbing. Probably climbing at 70s-80s. By now, I'm really into spinning and climbing at 85-100. Usually low 90s. Only when it really pitches will I stand and be high 60s low 70s. I attribute this to my cadence work the past two years. Single leg drills. High cadence low tempo. Spin ups. Stuff like that.
As far as progression. Never rush the upgrade process if you're a racer, learning to win is Key. If you win in each category, that's a great sign. If you're not a racer but want to be faster, really focus on good form. Keep the upper body still and focus on the cadence drills. I used to bounce a lot on the bike, but eventually I slowly began strengthening my core and working on pedal stroke to keep myself still. On the road and on phone. Sorry for the grammar and format.
Pass me the kombucha wrote:
As far as the pedal question. That's a really great question, and until now- I haven't really thought about it. But surprisingly, when I first hopped on the bike. I was a pedal masher, and I loved standing when climbing. Probably climbing at 70s-80s. By now, I'm really into spinning and climbing at 85-100. Usually low 90s. Only when it really pitches will I stand and be high 60s low 70s. I attribute this to my cadence work the past two years. Single leg drills. High cadence low tempo. Spin ups. Stuff like that.
A couple of questions:
1. Do you do SFR work? Do you think this would help with TTing? My happy cadence is in the 80-100 range. Do you think it's beneficial to do some mashing?
2. What was your distance in college running? It seems like the 800/1500 guys that ran in college end up being better cyclists than the 5k/10k guys especially on short punchy climbs.
Pass me the kombucha wrote:
As far as progression. Never rush the upgrade process if you're a racer, learning to win is Key. If you win in each category, that's a great sign.
^this. Although if you're really good you don't have much of a choice. I'll add that collegiate cycling is a great way to learn how to win.
Pass me the kombucha and i chose D2, or anyone else-asking for your comments about any potential bike workouts between now and Oct. 15 for an upcoming duathlon-2m/10m/5k:
1. I am a really old guy. Can run fairly fast for my age so running is fine.
2.Only about 2 dozen times on the bike in last month or so for an hour or up to 15 miles. Prior 2 years was more biking than running so I had greater base with power. Well over 200 miles/week. Could usually go 20-23 average for long distances with the group.
3. Did 1 duathlon recently but bike was very weak for 12 miles. Did 2 15 mile TT's 2 and 1 week out from race but they were weak also.
Does it make any sense to do some "speed" bike work or just keep spinning for the next 2 1/2 weeks?
Thanks!