txRUNNERgirl wrote:
Is this a trick question? I don't see how the limited amount of time you have affects what kind of workouts you do. A 60 minute easy run takes as much time as a 15 minute warm-up, 30 minute tempo, 15 minute cool-down.
he's trying to get results quick, maybe what he's saying is that he doesn't want to train the system differently on different days, just wants to focus on one run, twice a week
off base wrote:
If I could only do one type of workout and everything else had to be easy mileage, that workout would definitely be a tempo run.
with hills
Squats and deadlifts of course. Oops, wrong forum!
Tempo.
Why? Not far off what you do in a race. Sustained effort. Variable by time and speed. Can be done more often. Faster recovery from.
this could get ugly wrote:
txRUNNERgirl wrote:Is this a trick question? I don't see how the limited amount of time you have affects what kind of workouts you do. A 60 minute easy run takes as much time as a 15 minute warm-up, 30 minute tempo, 15 minute cool-down.
he's trying to get results quick, maybe what he's saying is that he doesn't want to train the system differently on different days, just wants to focus on one run, twice a week
I read the question the same way (i think) as tcRUNNERgirl.
GIven X amount of time to train on a given day, what is the best way to spend that time?
If you have 2 hours to train, and you have to pick just one workout, I would do intervals. Depending on the goal race, that would determine the length of the intervals and the recovery.
I would even go as far to say that this is a better approach to marathon training than simply running easy for 2 hours. Alternatng 15 minutes at race pace, followed by 5-10 minutes at an easy recovery pace.
I made the question vague on purpose, but what brought it up was that I was talking to a guy that's just thinking about doing some races after doing some limited running around his neighborhood.
He's not a "competitive runner" he's not wanting to delve into VO2max, the nuance of threshold paces, etc.. but he knows he needs to do more than cruise around his 5M loop.
Im surprised not more people are on board with progression runs.
I've finished some solid progression runs with the last 1.5 miles at 5k or so pace, and others I've maybe just light tempo'd the last few miles. Either way you can cover multiple systems depending on how you feel and they have the same benefit of tempos being a continuous harder effort. And they don't take too much out of you unless you decide to really hammer.
VerminMeat wrote:
I made the question vague on purpose, but what brought it up was that I was talking to a guy that's just thinking about doing some races after doing some limited running around his neighborhood.
He's not a "competitive runner" he's not wanting to delve into VO2max, the nuance of threshold paces, etc.. but he knows he needs to do more than cruise around his 5M loop.
thanks for the clarification. The way I see it, intervals are the most effective at preparing to race. You don't see any coaches start off with intervals at the beginning of a season, and then progress to a bunch of tempos as the goal race approaches.
I suggest looking at training from the end goal back to where you are now:
What do I want to do? race fast!
How do I do that? Run intervals
How do I do that? run a little faster than easy (tempo/threshold whatever), and do fartleks (which are like less intense intervals)
How do I do that? Build general endurance (running more. Easy days, some longer than others) and general strength (running hills, doing calf raises, weights, just being more active in general.
Whatever workout that keeps him from getting bored and pushes the individual to keep pursuing the sport. Telling some noob to run intervals when that's not his thing is a sure way to get him to quit running.
You all are wrong. The answer is a 2/3-3/4 length of your goal race time trial. I can't fathom how this hasn't been stated. That it is it I am going home DEVASTATED!
Too steep a price wrote:
Whatever workout that keeps him from getting bored and pushes the individual to keep pursuing the sport. Telling some noob to run intervals when that's not his thing is a sure way to get him to quit running.
Yeah, my thoughts too. Just seems too advanced for someone that's way to new to it all. The track can be intimidating too.
For someone new to running, I would push the progression run. It has a similar effect as a tempo effort, but is more manageable because you ease into the faster paces and as a result have a better sense of how much faster you can crank and for how long as you progress through the run.
Plus, there is something about the downhill feeling of those runs that is just a lot of fun.
Dang, I rarely ever actually run these, but now I am going to have to start mixing some in.
Most beginners run all of their runs as progression runs. That's why they plateau.
I think progression runs are good for beginners because it teaches them not to start out too fast, but now that I have a little more info from the OP, I wouldn't pick progression runs over the other workout options. Progression runs can happen naturally on other days if he feels good. Since the guy has a base of easy 5 milers or whatever, the next step would be fartlek runs IMO. Tempos and track intervals are too pace specific for this guy based on the OP's description.
In the winter, I like to do progression runs on the treadmill. Start at recovery pace or even slower, go up by 0.1 mph every minute or 2, and go as long and as hard as you want.
Intervals are not advanced. Your 14-year-old neice is probably doing them at practice right now.
There is a reason the fastest people is town are not usually the hobby jogger running 50 mpw in easy running, it's the high school kids doing 30mpw with intervals.
Hill reps and Intervals
Smoove wrote:
You can consolidate this list some. Fartlek is really just an alternate way of getting some other form of workout in, so drop that from the list,
I'd also consider a tempo run and a progression run to have similar enough desired physiological adaptations to consider them functional equivalents.
So, I would consolidate your list as follows, and assuming that you are looking for overall fitness benefits with the ability to race some and assuming that you are doing easy distance as well, I would go with tempo/progression runs. That being said, as someone who considers the 5k his primary race, I view the intervals as being the key to getting me into peak shape. I think the tempos establish a fairly high level of fitness (say 90% of where I want to be), but that the intervals take me that last 10%.
Long run
vo2max intervals
hill reps/mile paced reps
tempo/progression run
Good input, based on personal experience would agree.
I might add that how much time you have to get fit changes the equation a bit. If you only have a few months to get fit (eg. college kid who's been injured during the spring/summer, trying to make it back for cross) then you have to decide whether you want to optimize the short term or the long term.
If what's coming up in the short term is very important to you and maybe being a bit less fit 8 months down the road is a reasonable price to pay for it, then shifting towards vO2 intervals as opposed to more base aerobic workouts (eg. tempo) is probably what you want. You'll hit your absolute max fitness faster, but that max will be a bit lower than if you had a better aerobic base (but if you don't have time to benefit from/obtain the aerobic base, then who cares). If what's coming up in the short term is important, but is in the grand scheme not critical and you'd rather become absolutely the most fit, then the above is true: tempos, long runs, short/fast/power reps, vO2 (in that order, except for marathon).
Veronica Billat' s 30/30 vV02max workout. The pace is based on a 6 minute run test. It supposedly improves running economy, lactate threshold and V02max.
First run for 6 minutes to get your vV02 pace. Let's say you run 2000 meters. That's 5 laps at 1:12 pace. For the workout you run 30 seconds at that pace, which is 165 meters and immediately float for 30 seconds about 82 meters. Continue for 20+ minutes.
Hill repeats are useless for most distance runners. A waste of a hard workout day.
A hill repeat fartlek in the early season that incorporates sprints at the top and short recoveries is what Lydiard advised as a transition to speed work later. That I would say is a good offseason transition for a month in November or December for distance runners that run year round.
You sprint up a hill at a slow pace, get in oxygen debt, go full blast at the crest, jog down, Repeat.
That what Lydiard prescribed as a transition to speed work in the off season.
In my opinion and experience running steep hill repeats did nothing to improve my running. I think its the most overrated workout. Takes away from concentrating on effective squats in the weightroom and feeling good on your easy days to recover for more important hard sessions where you are doing timed repeats on the track with gradually less recovery.