For all of you who definitely think Usain Bolt is on drugs, this is for you (amazing video)

The point is that WADA does not have a problem with the work of Healing Hans. Some here asserted that he was a PED doctor and here we have a senior WADA official saying that his work does not involve the use of PEDs. They may think he's a bit of a quack in the vein of some scientists who believe that acupuncture is quackery, but no one at WADA is pointing the fingers at Hans for using PEDs in treating his clients.

I understand. I'm not up to date on actovegin, or have data and studies to back up my intuition, but seeing what WADA did for meldonium, Activegin sounds much more performance enhancing. If it works as well as everyone says it does, it probably should be banned.

I'm glad I don't have to waste time reading this thread, as I don't think he's on drugs, I KNOW he is.

SayWhat? wrote:

Who are the caught dopers that Healing Hans has worked with?

Caught with a positive test and convicted: Tyson Gay.

Caught with an ABP violation but not convicted (hung jury): Paula Radcliffe.

("Caught" via witness testimony but not prosecuted: Maurice Greene.)

There are more where that come from. For example, Healing Hans also claims to have treated five out eight of the 100 m worldchampion final in 2009.

“Bolt, meanwhile, has worked recently with Angel Hernandez, the trainer formerly known as Angel (Memo) Heredia. Hernandez testified during Graham’s 2008 trial that he provided banned substances to disgraced Olympians Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery and other athletes. In a 2008 interview with The New York Times, Hernandez acknowledged that he had helped clients use performance-enhancing drugs and avoid detection.”

rojo wrote:

I somehow bumped into this on twitter today and was blown away by it.

https://twitter.com/JustSportsTweet/status/719497034135244800

Yes, it doesn't prove he's clean. People could dope when they were 17 but it also very well could be that he's just a freak as I've stated all along.

It looks like he's a different species than everyone else in the race. It looks like a robot - or a car - is racing humans.

Rojo and other "believers",

From an article on Marion Jones:

"Even back at her California high school in 1992, the 16-year-old Jones missed an out-of-competition drugs test but escaped punishment at a hearing.

Her mother had seen to that by hiring Johnnie Cochrane, who successfully defended OJ Simpson on a murder charge."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/7184067.stm

I don't get the healing Hans bit either. I am more interested in the Operration Porto (sp?) records.

The case against Paula is the blood tests and the change in stance. We don't know in that case either but I have come to suspect a lot of the performances of the last two decades including Bolt, Radcliffe, and the East African stars. The poor testing stories of the last few years have made me more doubtful. I never would have believed the IAAF took bribes either.

As for this discussion, I agree with the following:

-The 'Bolt is once in a lifetime talent' argument is hurt by Blake getting very close.

- Bolt's progression does look strange after the plateau before 2008. I'll give credence to the 'switched to the 100 argument' but I don't know much about sprint training

casual obsever wrote:

SayWhat? wrote:

Who are the caught dopers that Healing Hans has worked with?

Caught with a positive test and convicted: Tyson Gay

("Caught" via witness testimony but not prosecuted: Maurice Greene.)

There are more where that come from. For example, Healing Hans also claims to have treated five out eight of the 100 m worldchampion final in 2009.

Not being snarky, but I hadn't seen that last claim. Do you have the source or link?

Hans worked with sanctioned athletes Asafa Powell as well as cyclist Stephen Roche.

Activogen has been used by cyclists at US Postal in 2000: Armstrong, Andreau, Ekimov, Hincapie, Joquim, Kjaergaard, Livingston, Vasseur, Hamilton. Jesus Manzano and Joe Papp used Actovegin as well.

im guessing usain bolt is on some sort of low dose steroid program,plus perhaps human growth hormones.what hes using wouldnt be in huge doses like ben johnson,or even at the doses michael johnson and maurice greene probably took,but id say his huge talent has been "tweaked" to turn him into something unbeatable.

Clerk wrote:

Not being snarky, but I hadn't seen that last claim. Do you have the source or link?

Hans worked with sanctioned athletes Asafa Powell as well as cyclist Stephen Roche.

Activogen has been used by cyclists at US Postal in 2000: Armstrong, Andreau, Ekimov, Hincapie, Joquim, Kjaergaard, Livingston, Vasseur, Hamilton. Jesus Manzano and Joe Papp used Actovegin as well.

ESPN:

"The doctor acknowledges his clinic has evolved into a haven for muscle-injured sprinters over the last two decades. To illustrate the point, Muller-Wohlfahrt brings up the IAAF World Championships held two summers ago in Berlin, claiming that five of the eight sprinters in the men's 100-meter final were patients -- led by Bolt who clocked a world record."

Yeah -- larkimm's right -- these are not cogent arguments.

casual obsever wrote:

ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7324261/germany-dr-hans-wilhelm-muller-wohlfahrta-great-healer-quack-hyperactive-syringe

"The doctor acknowledges his clinic has evolved into a haven for muscle-injured sprinters over the last two decades. To illustrate the point, Muller-Wohlfahrt brings up the IAAF World Championships held two summers ago in Berlin, claiming that five of the eight sprinters in the men's 100-meter final were patients -- led by Bolt who clocked a world record."

In that case, it narrows the search:

Dwain Chambers! Add him to the list of known dopers Hans has treated

Bolt, Gay, Chambers, Powell are 4/5. Haven't found any links in googling the other four Patton, Burns, Thompson or Baily.

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah -- larkimm's right -- these are not cogent arguments.

Just a moment. Larkimm wrote: "Just tossing out a name and then some negative phrases doesn't make for a cogent argument."

The facts described here about Healing Hans' work are quite a bit more than "tossing out a name and then some negative phrases".

And thanks to Clerk, we can now add Powell and Chambers to Hans' list of convicted drug cheats. + Gay.

(I don't really care about the soccer players and cyclists, but those who do and think Germany's soccer is clean, start for example here:

. Likewise Spain's soccer is heavily involved with Fuentes' to be destroyed blood bags.)

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah -- larkimm's right -- these are not cogent arguments.

casual obsever wrote:

To be precise, he worked for quite a while in West-Berlin, which is in the east part of Germany.

So, being precise, if (I haven't researched this, I'll trust your facts) he worked in West Berlin, I think you'll find that that was part of West Germany. The fact that it was an isolated enclave entirely surrounded by East Germany, and is located on the eastern side of the German area still doesn't make it East Germany. West Berlin was, from the day the wall went up, part of West Germany.

So, being precise you agree that he was never part of East Germany?

casual obsever wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah -- larkimm's right -- these are not cogent arguments.

Just a moment. Larkimm wrote: "Just tossing out a name and then some negative phrases doesn't make for a cogent argument."

The facts described here about Healing Hans' work are quite a bit more than "tossing out a name and then some negative phrases".

And thanks to Clerk, we can now add Powell and Chambers to Hans' list of convicted drug cheats. + Gay.

(I don't really care about the soccer players and cyclists, but those who do and think Germany's soccer is clean, start for example here:

http://www.dw.com/en/doping-in-football-a-taboo-subject/a-17026060

. Likewise Spain's soccer is heavily involved with Fuentes' to be destroyed blood bags.)

I'm sorry, but it still isn't cogent.

The facts described here do not in any way make him a doping doctor. They make him a doctor that uses unusual treatments, has a high record of success and who treats people who want to get the best treatment possible.

All athletes, including doping athletes, drink water. Does that make drinking water a sign that you are doping athlete?

There is no evidence at all, not a single shred, that Healing Hans has ever done anything with any of the athletes he has treated which would be considered to be doping. Treating athletes who have subsequently been convicted of doping (and where in all cases the doping was found not to have had anything to do with Healing Hans, as far as the public record shows) does not make him a doping doctor, and does not make a cogent argument about his doping.

I'm not here to defend Healing Hans, I know nothing more of him than I've read (the same as everyone else here). I'm simply pointing out that the reasons some people find him "suspicious" are utterly flawed when tested against logic rather than paranoia, conspiracy theories or just plain old jealousy.

larkimm wrote:

So, being precise you agree that he was never part of East Germany?

Of course. That's why I explicitly mentioned West Berlin rather than Berlin, and placed it geographically correct into the "east part of Germany", not into East Germany.

As for Healing Hans, I know you'd it call all coincidental. Personally I go with "where there's smoke, there's fire".

For all of you who that definitely think Usain Bolt is on drugs, this is for you (amazing video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYHuylQcF8o

You're right to say there is no direct evidence of him being a doping doctor. But to say that there is no reason to be suspicious shows an immense ignorance of the state of the sport. It ignores the revelations about how sophisticated doping is, how pervasive corruption is, and the whole crisis within the sport.

Clerk wrote:

This is not a Gettier problem. Yes. We can know my making conclusions from the facts.

We know that every explanation for Bolt being an exception to the rule (that top 100m sprinters dope) is a myth. There is no explanation left for is performances, except doping.

We know he is doping

I am really interested to know how the f*ck you "know he is doping"?