That video has absolutely no bearing on whether Usain Bolt is or is not on drugs.
That video has absolutely no bearing on whether Usain Bolt is or is not on drugs.
Do we know any of the other athlethes in that race and did any of them make it to senior athletics and get caught doping? Would be interesting to know.
Rojo,
The right genetics for sprinting plus PEDs equals domination.
rojo wrote:
Yes, it doesn't prove he's clean. People could dope when they were 17
Case in point - Lance Armstrong.
Lance Footweak wrote:
rojo wrote:Yes, it doesn't prove he's clean. People could dope when they were 17
Case in point - Lance Armstrong.
Armstrong began doping around '90 or '91 which would have put him at 18-19. I'm sure others, especially Europeans, have started earlier. Anyways, Bolt is a phenom, sure, but likely doping as well. There are tons of B and C level dopers, like the Hebron Kentucky team. Champions are talented and hard working, more so than anyone else, and for some, sanctioned peds allow them to put in the hard work no one else can do. Could Bolt be clean? maybe. It's strongly suspect when an athlete puts in a performance no one else can come close to. Like Radcliffe, Genzebe Dibaba, and Rudisha, Bolt is extremely suspect.
Very impressive video. He looks like he is 5 years older than the other dudes. I'm not saying I'm 100% certain he is cheating, but there are certain trends that cannot be avoided. I posted this the other day. I'd love to hear your explanation for all of these points:Every time Bolt finds an excuse to miss a bunch of meets or runs slower than expected and he goes to his doctor in Germany, he comes back and miraculously runs like .2 faster.2008, he goes 9.69 with no form and backwards leaning like a goofball.2009, he claims to have ongoing injuries from a car accident, goes to his doctor in Germany, comes back, and runs 9.58 and 19.19.2012, he struggles to a 9.8-high in the Jamaican trials and loses to Blake, claims a hamstring injury, disappears for a while, and comes back looking much bigger and stronger and runs 9.63 and 19.32.2015 year, he goes from 10.1x to 9.8x in no time, and wins in Beijing.
rojo wrote:
I somehow bumped into this on twitter today and was blown away by it.
https://twitter.com/JustSportsTweet/status/719497034135244800Yes, it doesn't prove he's clean. People could dope when they were 17 but it also very well could be that he's just a freak as I've stated all along.
It looks like he's a different species than everyone else in the race. It looks like a robot - or a car - is racing humans.
As others have implied; this means nothing. He could have just been further along the maturation process than other 17 year olds.
It's likely that the desire to cheat is elevated when you are expected to be a prodigy early in life but start to level off while those you schooled in the junior ranks start to mature and pass you. This happens regularly in sport, enough to counteract any, "He was too good at a young age to need PEDs!" protestations.
This is the second (and third is related) point I bring up in the post.
He was not a raw talent.
[myth]- He was a talent from a young age
No. He was bred. He was farm-raised. Somebody was paying for him to travel to Dr. Muller-Wolfharht since he was 16. Someone saw the potential and since then managers, coaches, and sponsors have had their fingers in the pot since he was a kid.
The idea of Bolt as a pure, innocent, untainted junior athlete has to come to an end.
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/st...ve-syringeMuller-Wohlfahrt says they were first introduced when Bolt's coach brought Bolt, then a quiet 16-year-old, to his Munich clinic. Over the years, the doctor says, he has become a fringe member of Bolt's support staff, his duties ranging from tending to Bolt's aches and pains, to analyzing his sprint mechanics during track workouts when he's in town, to crafting specific exercises aimed at helping him withstand the rigors of the sport.
"The first time he came nobody knew him, but his coach sent him here to ask me whether it was worth it to train him," says Muller-Wohlfahrt, who himself trained as a track athlete growing up in a small town in northern Germany, by the Baltic Sea. "He [the coach] was not sure whether he was able to train very, very hard. I said, 'If he does this and this exercises -- yes, then he can.' So he started to do exercises and then the success grew more and more. For example, yesterday he phoned and he does his exercises. We have a very good connection, very good correspondence."and from
http://espn.go.com/olympics/st...n-magazineQ: You've been diagnosed with scoliosis. How has that affected your training?
A: When I was younger it wasn't really a problem. But you grow and it gets worse. My spine's really curved bad [makes "S" shape with finger]. But if I keep my core and back strong, the scoliosis doesn't really bother me. So I don't have to worry about it as long as I work hard. The early part of my career, when we didn't really know much about it, it really hampered me because I got injured every year. The most talented and gifted man in track and field? Born with a curved spine.
Showed unbelievable talent from an early age? His coach was unsure about him until 16
An accomplished junior athlete, untainted and innocent? Only after being managed and coached by doping coach Glen Mills, and treated regularly by Dr. Muller-Wolfahrt since 16.
Okay, but he still has a normal improvement curve!
....
- He has a normal improvement curve
Then lets talk about improvement curves. We know that gold medalists live on the edge of bell curves. Most Junior World beaters are there because they are insanely talented, but also because they're more mature than the rest. The result is that their career isn't as long. American Milers Jim Ryun to Alan Webb are example of great juniors who still had typical career paths; those paths just started several years earlier than normal.
Want to talk sprinters? Lets talk about Obea Moore: 16 year old runs 45.15 400m and never goes faster. J-Mee Samuels runs 10.08 in high school and only 10.03 3 years later. Their career fits a normal curve, just that it started at a younger age.
The case of diminishing returns is typical. (and if you regularly see proportional improvements from 19.75 to 19.19, then you must be witnessing some incredible coaching). Even more than that though, is the "double peak". The familiar case is the 30-35+ year old who is on the end of their career and turns to doping instead of face the realities of life after. But for an athlete who just moved the whole curve ahead a few years? A double peak shouldn't happen.
A junior phenom is, by definition, beyond the curve. Applying the same averages and expectations for the general population can't work with the athletes never started on that curve to begin with.
Here is his 200m progression, the only event he ran throughout his career.
2015 19.55 -0.1 Beijing (National Stadium) 27 AUG
2013 19.66 0.0 Moskva (Luzhniki) 17 AUG
2012 19.32 +0.4 London (Olympic Stadium) 09 AUG
2011 19.40 +0.8 Daegu 03 SEP
2010 19.56 -0.8 Kingston (NS), JAM 01 MAY
2009 19.19 -0.3 Berlin (Olympiastadion) 20 AUG
2008 19.30 -0.9 Beijing (National Stadium) 20 AUG
2007 19.75 +0.2 Kingston (NS), JAM 24 JUN
2006 19.88 +0.4 Lausanne 11 JUL
2005 19.99 +1.8 London (CP) 22 JUL
2004 19.93 +1.4 Devonshire 11 APR
2003 20.13 0.0 Bridgetown, BAR 20 JUL
2002 20.58 +1.4 Kingston, JAM 18 JUL
2001 21.73 +0.6 Debrecen 14 JUL
(Full graph available here:
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/j...rogression)
Started working with Glen mills in 2005
I see a career in three phases: Pre-Mills (2004 and earlier), 400m/200m in 2005-2007, and 100m/200m 2008- on.
I see an athlete who started their improvement curve early, and got their peak years around 18-22. I see one who then got frustrated that he wasn't living up to the hype and expectation to keep progressing, and with some insane intervention, arrived on the world scene in a wholly new way.
...
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6730255#ixzz49WLxjWfM
Perhaps, he should attempt to break the Junior record again to alleave all doubts.
Usain Bolt has been a client of Dr. "Healing Hans" Wohlfahrt (who originally came from EAST GERMANY and moved to Munich) since the age of 16 years old. He was introduced to the doctor by his coach.
Paula Radcliffe has been a client of Dr. Wohlfahrt since the age of 20.
Is rojo not aware of this history for both Bolt and Radcliffe?
Who was 5 seconds behind Paula Radcliffe in 1992 as a junior runner at the World Cross Country Championships?
Junior women's race (4.005 km)
For full event details see 1992 IAAF World Cross Country Championships – Junior women's race
Individual race
Rank Athlete Country Time
1 Paula Radcliffe United Kingdom 13:30
2 Wang Junxia China 13:35
3 Lydia Cheromei Kenya 13:43
4 Jennifer Clague United Kingdom 13:44
5 Anja Smolders Belgium 13:58
6 Janeth CaizalitÃn Ecuador 14:00
7 Elena Cosoveanu Romania 14:02
8 Zhang Lirong China 14:03
9 Gete Wami Ethiopia 14:04
10 Denisa Costescu Romania 14:05
11 Emebet Shiferaw Ethiopia 14:06
12 Susie Power Australia 14:06
Answer:
Wang Junxia from China.
Oh boy.
d aaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!there is some good detective work on this thread
rjm33 wrote:
Usain Bolt has been a client of Dr. "Healing Hans" Wohlfahrt (who originally came from EAST GERMANY and moved to Munich) since the age of 16 years old. He was introduced to the doctor by his coach.
Paula Radcliffe has been a client of Dr. Wohlfahrt since the age of 20.
Is rojo not aware of this history for both Bolt and Radcliffe?
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7324261/germany-dr-hans-wilhelm-muller-wohlfahrta-great-healer-quack-hyperactive-syringeWho was 5 seconds behind Paula Radcliffe in 1992 as a junior runner at the World Cross Country Championships?
Junior women's race (4.005 km)
For full event details see 1992 IAAF World Cross Country Championships – Junior women's race
Individual race
Rank Athlete Country Time
1 Paula Radcliffe United Kingdom 13:30
2 Wang Junxia China 13:35
3 Lydia Cheromei Kenya 13:43
4 Jennifer Clague United Kingdom 13:44
5 Anja Smolders Belgium 13:58
6 Janeth CaizalitÃn Ecuador 14:00
7 Elena Cosoveanu Romania 14:02
8 Zhang Lirong China 14:03
9 Gete Wami Ethiopia 14:04
10 Denisa Costescu Romania 14:05
11 Emebet Shiferaw Ethiopia 14:06
12 Susie Power Australia 14:06
Answer:
Wang Junxia from China.
Oh boy.
"Coach (Mills) is a genius...an evil genius hahah"
rojo wrote:
I somehow bumped into this on twitter today and was blown away by it.
https://twitter.com/JustSportsTweet/status/719497034135244800Yes, it doesn't prove he's clean. People could dope when they were 17 but it also very well could be that he's just a freak as I've stated all along.
It looks like he's a different species than everyone else in the race. It looks like a robot - or a car - is racing humans.
As an aside, that was at the National Sports Stadium in Hamilton, Bermuda. It is a fantastic track and open for the public to use. Well worth a look for anyone that ever happens to be in Bermuda on vacation or whatever.
rjm33 wrote:
Usain Bolt has been a client of Dr. "Healing Hans" Wohlfahrt (who originally came from EAST GERMANY and moved to Munich) since the age of 16 years old. He was introduced to the doctor by his coach.
Wohlfahrt is not from East Germany
It still doesn't prove that Bolt has taken drugs. You can say that my head is in the sand, but it still doesn't prove anything. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't, but WE don't know.
I wasn't sure before, but now I'm convinced he's on drugs.
Something we all know wrote:
It still doesn't prove that Bolt has taken drugs. You can say that my head is in the sand, but it still doesn't prove anything. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't, but WE don't know.
This is not a Gettier problem. Yes. We can know my making conclusions from the facts.
We know that every explanation for Bolt being an exception to the rule (that top 100m sprinters dope) is a myth. There is no explanation left for is performances, except doping.
We know he is doping
From the article:
Radcliffe, 37, has been a faithful patient since Muller-Wohlfahrt first treated her for a foot stress fracture 17 years ago. Now deep in preparations for the 2012 London Olympics, Radcliffe returned last spring from altitude training in Albuquerque, N.M., complaining of tightness in her lower back and legs. "Not feeling strong," in the words of Muller-Wohlfahrt.
There were also doubters in the 1970s, when the up-and-coming Muller-Wohlfahrt was brought in from Berlin.
"I was very young, and they expected big success," he recalls. "This was a world of superstars. [Bayern Munich] was the European champion three times in a row. It was [Franz] Beckenbauer, [Gerd] Muller, [Sepp] Maier, [Hans-Georg] Schwarzenbeck. They were my patients. I was very young. I had to be successful.
"By this, I invented or tried therapies which didn't exist until then.
As an "Outside the Lines" reporter watched, the doctor spent an hour listening patiently while tending to Radcliffe. As she lay on a treatment table, the sinewy, muscled distance runner gradually morphed into a human voodoo doll.
Radcliffe sighed as the initial injections penetrated deep beneath the skin, with some needles 2 to 3 inches long. Muller-Wohlfahrt used his right hand to deliver 14 injections into her lower back. Another two were directed into the front of her right hip, followed by four into the top of her left foot. He then manipulated her legs wildly -- left and right, up and down.
Oh boy.
Did you know Paula has the highest pain tolerance of anyone on this planet?
Yes she does. Gerard Hartmann said that it is true.
She can also get more dehydrated than anyone else on this planet.
Ha Ha Ha. You guys are hilarious.
Lance Footweak wrote:
rojo wrote:Yes, it doesn't prove he's clean. People could dope when they were 17
Case in point - Lance Armstrong.
I don't think this is a case in point at all. Lance was nowhere near as good in biking at age 17 as Bolt was at sprinting, at age 17.