Hunter v. Slagowski: A Confounding Variable

Because 49.0x for the open 400m is nowhere near the caliber of performance a sub-4 mile.

His 400m is on par with a decent state level runner.

His 800m is on par with a US Top-5 type kid in a given year.

His mile is on par with a US Top-10 ALL TIME type runner.

Pretty clear where that trend is. He is a miler who can step down to run a good 800m.

As for XC: He wasn't an All-American, obviously. He was a Top-10 in the NW guy his junior year who proved he could run with guys like NXN qualifiers Tristan Peloquin and Reilly Bloomer, as well as Great Oak's CA Top-15 finishers Isaac Cortez and Spencer Dodds. He followed that near-elite junior season with a poor senior XC season, unfortunately. Never said or would say that he was at Maton's or Fisher's level in XC. Also wouldn't say he is at their level at the 3200m (He has only run 9:15 or so, though that was part of a quad at his district meet last year). My point was that Fisher and Maton weren't nearly as good at 3k+ as they were at the mile, despite competing in them plenty of times in very competitive situations. If they were? Fisher would have beaten Hunter at Brooks last year and would have been a low 8:30s guy - instead, he ran 8:43 while losing to Hunter in his best performance above a mile (during HS). And Maton wouldn't have been a 8:18 guy for 3k or 14:20 guy for 5k. In HS, those guys were milers first and foremost, just like Slagowski.

dontH8the8 wrote:

1:48.70 while seen much more in high school than the amazing sub-4 is still equivalent to a 4:00.8 mile according to the IAAF. The fact is high school training is getting a lot better and while someone with loads of talent and s**t coaching could run 1:48 that's not to say that it's not pretty much equivalent with sub-4.

IAAF tables are a legit comparison of strengths and weakness of athletes, youth or otherwise.

Remember that 49.04 was from last spring. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 47 FAT out of him, he's that much stronger. No way Hunter could lay down that kind of time. Webb was likely in 48 shape when he ran 3:53

Cool story, bro wrote:

Oh? wrote:

I guess where I disagree is where people think 49.0x open and 48.x relay are fast times for a 400m. I've known plenty of 1:53-1:55 types, or 4:15ish types, that run 49.x open and 48.x in a relay. Those are runners I would say are more "speed" type 800m or miler runners. 49 open and 48.x relay for a sub-4 miler or a 1:48.70 (with potential to run faster in the 800) doesn't match that kind of "speed" type of athlete at his primary distance (mile) or secondary distance (800m).

Agreed. I would be more surprised if a sub-4 guy could NOT run under 50 for a 400.

Human_Torch wrote:

Not that it is really relevant to the Slag v. Hunter debate, but your statements about Arroyo are wrong. He ran 8:51 solo in the 3200 on a VERY windy day in HS his senior year. He also ran an international jr. XC meet that year sometime around February. 8k I think. Andres had great range, and is MUCH better 1600 guy than 400 guy. But he appears to have settled on being strictly an 800 guy after that 1:47 at FL Relays his senior year.

Arroyo did have great range. Never meant to imply otherwise. But a guy that goes sub-48 in an open 400m, 1:47 for 800m and 4:05 for a mile is more of a speed guy than a guy that is probably 48.x in an open 400m, 1:48.x in the 800m, and sub-4 in the mile.

I wish Arroyo focused more on the 800m than trying to extend up to the mile. IIRC didn't he run the mile in the post season races instead of the 800m? Or did he shut it down shortly after his state meet? I don't remember which. I just remembered thinking that it would be great to see what he could do against other 1:47 type guys in a great 800m showdown (like Brazier did).

jjjjjjj wrote:

Arroyo a 400/800 guy? He ran 800/1600/3200 (look up the incredible times he ran), and probably 400 as well.

Well aware that he was a distance runner. He also, if memory serves, ran a sub-48 for an open 400m at one point.

His 800m was his best race. His 400m was fairly close to his mile PR, though not exactly on par (but since he ran the mile much more often, that's not surprising). His 3200m was quite a bit weaker (in part because of the lack of competition in the event in Florida, of course).

My point was that he was more of a "speed guy" than Slagowski, and his focus seemed to be more towards the 800m than anything else (re: a 800m runner first and foremost).

Andro McNitro wrote:

Remember that 49.04 was from last spring. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 47 FAT out of him, he's that much stronger. No way Hunter could lay down that kind of time. Webb was likely in 48 shape when he ran 3:53

Cool story, bro wrote:

Agreed. I would be more surprised if a sub-4 guy could NOT run under 50 for a 400.

I would think he is able to run a 48.mid or 48.low for open 400m. I think 47.xx (open) is a little too much of a drop for him in one year, but who knows. In the last year he has dropped about 1.5 seconds/lap in the 800m, and about 2.5 seconds per lap in the mile. I'm not so sure he would drop MORE than a second in the 400m. Training for the 400m is a big difference from training for the mile, and as that is where has had made the most improvement, we should be able to assume (and it would be a good assumption, given that he is a distance runner) that he has focused more on the endurance aspect in his training than someone training for a 400m would.

Also, pretty sure Webb had run a 47 in HS as well.

I have a lot CSGO website, something inside everything, you can go and see http://www.csgo4skin.com/

Webb might have run a 47 relay carry, but his only FAT was a 49.2x while tripling 4/8/16.

Oh? wrote:

Also, pretty sure Webb had run a 47 in HS as well.

hunter just ran 1:48 at dogwood so everyone can shut up about his lack of speed now

Hunter 1:48.6. Can we stop pretending he doesn't have any speed? A matchup between Hunter and Slagowski will still be awesome, especially considering Hunter had crazy good competition and didn't even beat lil McGorty.

Oh? wrote:

Also, pretty sure Webb had run a 47 in HS as well.

Yes, Webb ran 47.4 in high school (might have been a relay split but he calls it his pr from high school) and I would say the main difference between Webb and both of these guys is power. Simply put, Webb looked powerful when he ran in high school and though it isn't really being debated here, neither of these guys would have been a match for him at a mile.

The odd thing about Hunter (for me) is his speed in spite of shuffling form. I'm somewhat of a shuffler myself in some ways but at top speed still have much more back kick. It's not a knock, just an observation. Clearly it works for him but I can't help but be curious if he had the kind of range of motion Slagowski does what it might mean for his speed. Perhaps it would be a negative rather than a positive.

No one said he had no speed. A 55 400 at the end of a 2 mile takes some serious wheels. 1:48 is exactly where I would have put him for a good race like that. He is just doesn't have the top end speed of Slagowski. MS would have won today's race handily, it's too bad he wasn't in it.And for the last time, Webb's 47 was a rumored relay split. He was probably a 48 at best for the open. Slagowski has Webb speed without as much endurance.

but... wrote:

Hunter 1:48.6. Can we stop pretending he doesn't have any speed? A matchup between Hunter and Slagowski will still be awesome, especially considering Hunter had crazy good competition and didn't even beat lil McGorty.

[quote]Andro McNitro wrote:

MS would have won today's race handily, it's too bad he wasn't in it.

[quote]

Not a chance. McGorty is way too good, his 800m skills are far better than slags

Slagowski is a phenom for sure, but unproven. He hasn't won anything big. He reminds me of a stud who can go out and solo impressive times against nobodies but then cracks when the pressure's on. Hunter meanwhile is proven. He doesn't get nervous. He's a winner. He's got guts. He's also got way more strength than Slagowski and would smoke the kid in a mile. It doesn't matter that Slagowski has more raw speed (debatable), all that matters is that Hunter has way more strength. he would smoke slagowski, no doubt

2016 New Balance Indoor National 800m: **1 Slagowski, Michael 16 Boise, ID 1:50.29O 3 ** 2 Perretta, Domenic 16 Beaver Falls, PA 1:50.58O 3 3 Cooper, Cameron 17 southfield, MI 1:50.97O 2 **4 McGorty, Brandon 17 Fairfax, VA 1:51.36F 3 ** 5 Petersen, Michael 16 Toronto, ON 1:51.99F 2 6 Nixon, Daniel 16 Birmingham, AL 1:52.98F 3 7 Desko, Tucker 16 Perkasie, PA 1:53.38F 1 **8 Lomong, Alex 16 Fork Union, VA 1:53.59F 1 ** 9 Calhoun, Garrett 16 Boise, ID 1:53.93F 3 Any questions oh wiseass one?

erh eh what ? wrote:

Slagowski is a phenom for sure, but unproven. He hasn't won anything big. He reminds me of a stud who can go out and solo impressive times against nobodies but then cracks when the pressure's on. Hunter meanwhile is proven. He doesn't get nervous. He's a winner. He's got guts. He's also got way more strength than Slagowski and would smoke the kid in a mile. It doesn't matter that Slagowski has more raw speed (debatable), all that matters is that Hunter has way more strength. he would smoke slagowski, no doubt

OK I think we can all agree now that drew is far and away a more impressive runner than slags. He just completed his day at dogwood by running an 8:43. That's a 1:48/8:43 double in one day. Your move, slags

farts wrote:

OK I think we can all agree now that drew is far and away a more impressive runner than slags. He just completed his day at dogwood by running an 8:43. That's a 1:48/8:43 double in one day. Your move, slags

Still falls short of German's 4:00.28 / 8:34 double at the California State Meet. Both completely solo efforts, less than 90 minutes apart.

Looking back, it's almost weird that German didn't go sub-4 in HS. Of course 6 months later he put that to rest.

Still the best double wrote:

farts wrote:

OK I think we can all agree now that drew is far and away a more impressive runner than slags. He just completed his day at dogwood by running an 8:43. That's a 1:48/8:43 double in one day. Your move, slags

Still falls short of German's 4:00.28 / 8:34 double at the California State Meet. Both completely solo efforts, less than 90 minutes apart.