Choked trying for 3-hour marathon.. What next?

You were already off pace by 10mi. Can't say you fell off by 20mi. A 1:31 half should have told you something too. I'm going to neg split to a sub 3 said no one ever (though it happens you just don't plan it like that).

One week at 55mi? Lol try 8 weeks at 62-65 miles than you'll know.

Thanks for the advice...appreciate it.

I didn't start running until I was 27. I have gotten up to some 75 mile week but not in a couple years. Feel like I get in really good shape in marathon training early on but then have a drop off fitness or get slightly injured after 9 weeks or so. Last year ran 5:20 for the mile. Ran a 10k at 36:31 a couple weeks ago but GPS watch said 5.94 miles ( short course) Think mid 38s would be more accurate for 10k. I feel like I lack aerobic and general muscular stretch late in the game in marathon.

Was reading about Bill Rodgers running lots of miles at an easier pace and was wondering if that would help me build up the lung/ heart power? Then maybe only work on speed/ MP 8-6 or seven weeks out from CHicago. If I keep it slow early in maybe I won't get injured and peak then rather then have a drop off...

BKCA wrote:

If I keep it slow early in maybe I won't get injured and peak then rather then have a drop off...

No need to keep things slow. Go for goal pace workouts but keep the workout volume modest to begin with. As you get fitter, increase the volume of goal pace workouts. This worked for me. Of course, the key is to set attainable immediate goals.

What I would do wrote:

You gotta run more than 55 miles a week.

And don't double until you get up to 80.

You are never gonna be strong in the latest stages of a race where the race distance is nearly half your average weekly mileage in training.

You also need weekly or biweekly 2h+ runs with the last 3rd at M pace or faster to build endurance for the end of the race.

BS. I broke 3 on less than 40mpw and run 2:53 on less than 50mpw. Negative splits.

You are right about the long runs, though.

Sid Luft wrote:

Chicago is much flatter than Pittsburgh.

The Chicago course alone will probably save 5 minutes.

No.

Ran Illinois not Pittsburgh. Was pretty flat.

BKCA wrote:

This past weekend I failed to run 3:00. Ended up running 3:24.

Fairly recent 5k - 18:27

Your 5K speed is more than enough for three hours, so don't insist too much on intervals if the marathon is your primary goal.

Instead, run long and easy (2 hours @85-90% MP / 70-75% HRM) , and long and steady (90 min with 60-80 min @95-100% MP / 82-87% HRM) twice or thrice weekly, depending on your recovery needs. Try to up and keep your weekly volume to about 100 kpw year round.

If you manage 4:15/km pace below ~88% HRM with no drift for a bit more than an hour, you know you are probably ready for a sub-3 attempt. However, response is individual and you should correlate with past marathons.

Keep training. Throw in some longer races 10-30K. Be patient. Arthur Lydiard said anyone could go sub 2:40 with focused training. I'm not so sure, but a male at prime age (20-35) can go sub 3:00 for sure. It takes time for capillary development.

My first 8 marathons (age 18 to 21) over a span of 2-1/2 years were:

4:08, 3:51, 3;24, 3:11, 2:57, 2:51, 2:50, 2:43

my 2c:

there is a chance that you may be a little bit too slow. With 18:47 speed on the 5k it seems a bit of a long shot to break 3 hours.

When I was your age, I also run 18:45 on the 5k and decided to give it a shot to break 3 hours. I trained 8 months with a personal coach that made me run 40 mpw, peaking at 50. I was worried because of the low mileage, but ended up running 2:54 in NYC finishing strong.

The key is that in these 8 months I had become much faster. Most of the runs were workouts and by the day of the marathon my 10K time had dropped from 38:20 to 36:30, HM from 1:26 to 1:20 and my mile time was 4:45. At that point, 3-hour marathon pace felt like jogging.

Tried several times to run more mileage, but I am more of middle-distance type guy: above 60 mpw I just break down. If that feels like you, get a coach rather than mindlessly crank up the miles.

Just run as much as you can without getting worn out.

Twice a week run faster than marathon pace, be it cruise intervals or a tempo or some quality in your long run.

Also try to get in a medium long run a week, longer than 15 miles. It helps mentally and for endurance.

Agree that 18-mid for a 5k isn't really a guarantee for a sub-3 marathon, especially on that mileage.

I would chill and make sure you fully recover before jumping back into any serious training. Then work on some shorter distance stuff. Try to get your 5k under 18, 10k maybe 37-mid and half down to ~1:23:xx

I disagree with a lot of the advice you've received. I've run several marathons in the 2:50's off of 40-50 miles per week (but I typically take 2-3 days off so my runs are often long when I do run). I'm a big believer in easy/slow long runs. I have natural speed and don't do any workouts other than races (5ks to 1/2 marathons) while marathon training. I think the long runs, no matter what pace they are, are key. That said, I think different types of training work for different people. This is what works for me. I'm also female.

Add doubles.

More running at goal marathon pace. That includes some of your long runs with 10 -14 miles at MP. You may not need 80 mpw to break 3 but I would advise at least 65 - 70 (w/ doubles).

Your times aren't too much unlike mine so I think you can do it. Just have to find the right training and apply consistently.

Mid distance guy wrote:

my 2c:

there is a chance that you may be a little bit too slow. With 18:47 speed on the 5k it seems a bit of a long shot to break 3 hours.

When I was your age, I also run 18:45 on the 5k and decided to give it a shot to break 3 hours. I trained 8 months with a personal coach that made me run 40 mpw, peaking at 50. I was worried because of the low mileage, but ended up running 2:54 in NYC finishing strong.

The key is that in these 8 months I had become much faster. Most of the runs were workouts and by the day of the marathon my 10K time had dropped from 38:20 to 36:30, HM from 1:26 to 1:20 and my mile time was 4:45. At that point, 3-hour marathon pace felt like jogging.

This is a good alternative for those who just don't respond well to high volume strategies. It doesn't work for everyone.

At some point though, the long run near MP is required practice.

Icebreaker in Milwaukee (I'm assuming that's where you ran 3:04) is super easy. Flat, wide turns, no wind, 45 degrees. It's a place to run a world record.

Don't get hung up on 3 hours or bust. Use 3 hours as a goal pace, an organizing principle for your training. Gradually ramp up your training, as has been suggested. Marathon improvements come from steady, consistent training over years.

But then run how your body feels on the day, adjusting for course, temperature, etc. Better to finish in 3:07 with splits of 1:32/1:37 than to be so fixated on an arbitrary time goal, 180 minutes, and blow up.

Take your improvements as they come. Enjoy the process.

marathoner.......... wrote:

I disagree with a lot of the advice you've received. I've run several marathons in the 2:50's off of 40-50 miles per week (but I typically take 2-3 days off so my runs are often long when I do run). I'm a big believer in easy/slow long runs. I have natural speed and don't do any workouts other than races (5ks to 1/2 marathons) while marathon training. I think the long runs, no matter what pace they are, are key. That said, I think different types of training work for different people. This is what works for me. I'm also female.

Good advice there. Lots of bad ideas in this thread however. No need to attempt training at 110% intensity for a 3:00 or 2:40 marathon! The most important runs for you are the easy long runs between two and three hours. Pace is not as important as time on feet, but maybe 90 seconds/mile slower than marathon pace. Only add fast MP 20-40 minute finishes of and when the easy pace long runs feel relatively comfortable or effortless. (People seem to be citing Canova workouts, but Canova had repeatedly cautioned not to treat Toyotas like Ferraris.)

Racing is good at all distances between 3k and marathon. Hills between one and three minutes jogging down for recovery are good. Fartleks with reps between 30seconds and 3minutes with long warmups and cooldowns are good. Short and easy days in between the harder and longer ones to fully recover are good.

Switch over to Hanson Brooks training. I'm telling you it works. Go get a book about their marathon training and you will go sub 3 hours. They will give you paces based on your goal marathon time and a training program to follow. Horrible advice on this board imo. Really good runners will just say get up to 80mpw without any talk about how. Get on a structured schedule based on science. They slowly build up your mileage to reach your specified goal and they do it with a combination of easy runs, long runs, speed workouts, strength workouts, etc. All of these runs at the right paces are important. For someone to say you need one thing or you are doing one thing wrong is probably an over simplification. With the confidence that you are following the right program to reach your specified goal, you can confidently run easy on easy days and run hard on hard days.

Yes, definitely wrong. I ran 2:37 at age 37 on 50 miles a week, but you need the long runs with at least (2) 20+ milers.

As others have already noted....you were off pace by mile 10...so even with the late race blow up you weren't there anyway it seems to me. Obviously you should run more, but if you have other workouts that indicate 3:00 is possible and you really did blow up, in the short term I would look at in race nutrition and hydration.

Another ignored point, you have race times from September, October, January, and April. At least 4 marathon's in 6 months? If you had a 2 week taper for each race that's 2 months lost. So you've run 4 marathon's on 4 months of buildup training? That's too much IMO. No wonder youre not improving each race. Use the summer to build up and get stronger. Don't sign up for any more races till the fall one you mentioned at the earliest. Run more, race less for gains in the marathon.