Six weeks out: need pacing advice for first marathon

I ran 2:32 going out in 1:14-15....I've also run 2:48 going out in 1:14-15. I'm sure I could have gone out in 1:20 and finished high 2:30s and gotten that negative split...but that would have been a slower overall time.

Slightly positive splits are just almost always gonna happen if you are actually racing and trying for a fast time. I've tried going out slow....this goes for all races....it just doesn't work for normal people.

All of my PRs have been slightly positive splits.

The marathon especially, if you are actually racing it, will hurt you around 22-24 the first time out. Bank on it. If that doesn't happen then you are probably running too slow early or one of the gifted few.

I've run...

2:48

DNF

2:34

2:38

2:46

2:35

2:32

2:40

2:47

Not fast by any means, but fast enough for a no talent has been.

Alan

EugeneMarathon_Pacing wrote:

I'm just curious about running my best. If I seem to have an agenda, it's mostly that I don't want to be ridiculously conservative.

And as posted by others, it's almost impossible to know the first time. Every body is different.

They gave you some good pacing strategies. Make a plan and train for it knowing full well you may have to throw the plan away on the day.

I'm a veteran of 17 marathons with a 2:41 best (and 2:43 Master's PR), and just now scanned through this thread. I'm in the PDX area and have a few friends running Eugene this year, targeting around 2:52. You may do well to tag along with them, at least for the first 2/3rds of the race, as they are all experienced marathoners.

I would concur with the others that said the marathon can be very tricky and fickle. Especially your first one, going into the unknown after 20 miles. I don't recall, but if you haven't run a 23-24 mile training run yet, I'd HIGHLY recommend you do so. First, to experience what it's like to be on your feet, running for that long. Second, to see how your energy stores hold up.

A successful marathon is all about efficiency and energy conservation. You can go from feeling awesome at mile 20, to feeling like death a couple miles later. Better you run strong at the end and walk away with a positive experience, than to struggle and die at the end, never wanting to run another one.

Also, mentally when you're slowing at the end of a marathon, even by just 10-15 seconds per mile, it can feel like you're running one minute per mile slower, due to the fatigue you're feeling and the lack of glycogen in your system. Be aware of that.

Bottom line - RESPECT the distance. Otherwise, it might eat you alive.

Good luck! Keep us posted and I'll look for you along the course in Eugene, where I'll be cheering those friends of mine on.

Alright all, here's an update:

I ran 22 today with the first 20 at 6:30 pace (two 7:10 cool-down miles). This was done on the Boston Marathon course after the first four miles, so there was some variance in the miles (the Newton hills were a bitch). [And net downhill, though by starting at mile 4 it's not THAT net downhill].

Did it feel good? Not really. Did it feel race hard? No. I have a slight cold and ran 10 yesterday, so those could have contributed. But it was just a struggle. I didn't fuel as intended (forgot) which could have contributed, but who knows.

I've got time for two more 20+ runs, one with MP work; I'm going to try going out slower and then hitting the late miles a little more aggressively.

Bottom line - thinking of going out in 6:30 pace, cranking down to 6:25 pace around half, then seeing how long I can hold on.

Thoughts?

Oh, and since it might be relevant: I did a gnarly workout on Wednesday:

800 meters at 2:45, 800 meters at 3:11 (no break between). Repeat 8 times (no break between reps either). 1 mile wu, 1 mile cd.

So, that might have added to fatigue a bit.

2:55. half time plus 15:00 minutes.

"S - 20m @ 6:50, easy until the end when my legs felt oh-so-tired."

Ugh. Why? This is terrible training, IMO. Better to do half that at 7:45, finishing at 6:40. Time to read this thread and see if anyone agrees.

I disagree. I think OP is racing his long runs. Seriously.

The 1:20:00 half doesn't lie. With low mileage, it is half doubled plus 15:00 minutes.

OP is able to do 6:50 on his long runs because he is doing low mileage.

Might have seen you out on the course!

That's a solid long run. And the marathon course is tough though you avoided the early downhill pounding. The weather was perfect today for a great long run plus all the people out there were a help.

Okay enough bringing you back to earth. That's a really good long run. Again anything can happen but I would say you are safe to go out in that 6:30-35 range. Go out in 6:20s and good luck to ya.

Set your heart rate monitor to sound off at 80% and stay below that until the last few miles when you can take off, if you're feeling good.

What happened to a 20 miler with the last half of it at marathon pace? Sorry if I missed that. If not, clearly you're avoiding it. You think it is too easy, but you haven't done it. Can you do 10@7:00 followed by 10@6:20? Yeah, it "sounds" easier than 22 at 6:30. Also, this is training. You shouldn't be wearing yourself down in training trying to run near MP continuously for long runs.

I ran 22 today with the first 20 at 6:30 pace (two 7:10 cool-down miles).

Better to start slow and finish fast, IMO. Your training is very unorthodox. You are a good runner, but you are hammering your long runs. Why?

20 miles at blazing fast pace right near marathon pace followed by two miles slower is the exact opposite of what most have done. Finish strong, not weak.

I bet you're really a 1:10 half marathoner with 2:30 marathon potential, but your training is such that you only pulled a 1:20. The wind/weather is just an excuse. You don't need a watch to pace the half.

You'll manage 2:50s, but you are also leaving a lot on the table and deep down a 2:30 runner if you train properly. If running 20 miles at JUST over goal marathon pace is a good training plan, update this post.

Just a little bit of course advice. Miles 15-20 are going to feel fast and easy. You are running down-river, thus downhill. The trees are on your left, blocking the southern exposure.

On the way back in, you are running up river with more exposure and less trees to protect you from the rising sun if there is one. We don't get much wind in the mornings, so you probably won't have a tailwind at this point either, more likely a side wind from the southwest.

You won't have much in the way of crowd support except in pockets (like near the dog park/Autzen) from the time you leave Springfield around the halfway point until you reach the last mile or two.

Good luck!

Not an excuse re: 22 miler, but I just had an opportunity to run with a friend on the Boston course and decided to do that.

Re: unorthodox training: I'm entirely aware that my training isn't optimizing this marathon. I'm looking way down the road and this marathon is a way to nab a Boston qualifier and have a little fun. The fast-slow of the 22 was just that I had intended 20, but with the course layout I had two "extra" miles. Someone earlier in the thread suggested doing some easy miles on the end, so I did.

I should mention, the 6:30 pace miles weren't even. It was a couple warm-up miles around 7:20, then eased down for a few before 10 quality miles ranging from 6:18-6:22. Given the part of the course that this was over (Newton Hills, but then some nice downhill) it felt like a "start slow finish fast" workout.

to JohnnyD: I don't run with a heart-rate monitor!

Can you help me better understand why you think this?

1) I know what racing is and isn't - sure, I do my long runs harder than many others, but I'm not racing them by any means.

2) Are you saying I can hold pace on the long runs because of low mileage? I mean, this week was 68 miles... it's not like, massive miles (and by ridiculous LRC standards, I'm a hobby jogger) but I'm surprised by your intuition.

Thanks for this - extremely helpful! I went to college at Oregon, so I have a bit of sense for the course, but good to know about both sun exposure and wind.

Thoughts on a hat? Not sure how bad the sun is at 9:45 (aka finish time) but could be worth thinking about.

Also, this was a really really nice thing to say-- buried under a little dig about my training ;) -- so thank you.

The 10/10 workout will happen in two weeks as my last long run. Stay tuned.

My A race this year is the BAA Half in October. Any high-level thoughts on training? (I actually have time and willingness to change that training plan!)

A quick follow-up for those who like to see results:

I ran a 2:47 today. I had some issues with my hips that didn't let me close as hard as I would have liked, but I think fine for a debut.

Anyway, now this thread is complete.

EugeneMarathon_Pacing wrote:

A quick follow-up for those who like to see results:

I ran a 2:47 today. I had some issues with my hips that didn't let me close as hard as I would have liked, but I think fine for a debut.

Anyway, now this thread is complete.

Congrats on your debut.

However, as they say, this thread is useless without... splits.

I ran almost exactly even halves - 1:23:XX, 1:23:XX; they were, in fact, slightly negative. Ran a few of the middle miles too hard and then died a bit, but mostly blame bad hips. Total splits are all screwy because mile markers and Garmin disagreed by quite a bit, which makes me think that my crummy ole Garmin was having an off day.

But, come on, "useless". Sheesh LRC so mean.