It's too damn hard to run a sub 5 mile

I have to agree with Cat on this. OP does seem to have some talent with his shorter distance times yet I do think that most people with training and mindset can break 5 unlike how Flagpole wants to put it. Yea there is a certain talent that makes it easier but nothing can beat consistentcy and hard work. "Hard work trumps talent when talent doesn't work." I can probably agree with him in a conversation about breaking 4 in the mile but breaking 5, I don't think so. Yea some people will have to train harder than others, but without having to work for it, the reward of breaking it wouldn't be as satisfying.

I know I won't change any minds, but not only can most people not break 5 for the mile, most people - 90%? - can't break 1'15" for a quarter. They just aren't fast enough, forget being able to handle "optimum training" without getting hurt.

Consistency and hard work does nothing for a person without the proper engine. A 5 minute mile is just too fast for the vast majority of men to ever be able to do, no matter the training, no matter the incentive.

I guess I need some sort of example on this because all this thread has taught me is that with hard work any average human can do it. I recognize there are extreme senarios that lead to a person not being physically able to due to an impairment but for the average human with training and drive to break the barrier, there should be no reason one cannot break it. A person can allways gain more speed and more endurance with training. I can understand not being able to break 4 in the mile but 5 should be absolutly doable.

Isn't OP a decent sprinter though? To me, this guy who could kick my butt in anything 400 and down having to work so hard to break 5 demonstrates quite the opposite. Even if you're above average all-around athlete, which anybody who can break 12 for 100 m most certainly is, there's no guarantee that you will respond well to middle distance training. At a certain level stuff like that is hard-coded into your genes. Sure everybody can _improve_ their mile time, but not every able-bodied male can break 5:00, even with optimal training.

The OP did run an electronically timed sub 12 100m from blocks, but it was wind-aided. His 11.98" run that he mentioned earlier had a 2.4 m/s tailwind.

Another way of looking at this is taking the opposite end on both sides. Everyone knows you need talent to run sub 4 and is not achievable by 99-99.99% of able-bodied young males regardless of how much they train. So what time is achievable by 99-99.99% of that group? I'd say sub 6, and taking the average of 3:59 and 5:59 would put the median guy at the center of the bell curve at 4:59. Definitely not easy, but still doable for 50% of young males if they have enough dedication.

Wind-aided or not, 11.98 does show some talent that most people don't have. And it's not like 2.4 m/s is that much different from a wind-legal 2.0 m/s. See for yourself, the difference between 2.4 and 2.0 wind speeds is only 0.01 to 0.02 seconds depending on altitude:

I can’t understand why the 4 min barrier cannot be broken by most, if not all average people with hard training. After all you can get more speed and endurance with hard work.

If that is all this thread has taught you then you don't pass the test. Most people wouldn't be able to run one lap at the required pace, much less four. It doesn't matter how aerobically developed they become from training, their legs are just not going to turn over fast enough.

Since people on here liked to just say I was wrong and didn't offer anything to actually prove to me why, so I did some question asking. All of my research lead me to go down the road of VO2 max and how that plays a roll in running ability. What I found was the average male (20-35) has an average VO2 max of around 40(+/-). This means that the average male should be able to(off of no change in what one is doing) go out and run at least a 7 minute mile(or around there). A person can increase their VO2 max however, this is where the added help of training, diet, and other such factors can come into play. From what I found, the average person can grow their VO2 max by 15-20%. For the sake of this idea, I will use the low end(15%) to throw out any above average male who may have some sort of better VO2 producing genome. Now, 40*1.15 is 46. Not a huge jump but significant. This would now put the average male with an enhanced VO2 max at about a 6:15mile. With all this being said, yea I was wrong, I'll admit it. I can guess that my previous opinion comes from a person who has broken the barrier already and is far along with their running career that breaking 5 isn't something I really sniff at too often. Heck, I almost broke 5 during the last mile of a 4 mile tempo and didn't think twice about it so my previous thoughts were highly skewed.

Here is the requirement for the Orange County Florida sheriff's office applicants. That would be a 10 minute mile at a steady pace.

Feel free to look up other police or military standards. The average person can NOT run a 7 minute mile.

1.5 Mile Run: Complete a 1.5 mile run in 15:00 minutes or less

With proper sprint and strength training almost every young male can run sub 60 400m.

Then they just need to start endurance training and maintain speed and power. Nothing impossible to run sub 5.

Vo2max is just part of the equation. Even if you have the "requisite" Vo2max, it doesn't guarantee a certain performance. Just offer another anecdote, I know someone who got tested in a lab with a vo2max of 70. Theoretically he should be able to run 4:20, yet I doubt he can break 5 in the mile. Why? Because he does his 400m repeats in like 76-77s and that's a struggle for him. Granted, he ran a 35 min 10k and a 2:48 marathon, so aerobically he is there. Still he should be able to run 31/2:23 with that Vo2max.

I raced an open outdoor 1 miler today at a local event, Spirit Run Newport Beach. I wanted a benchmark before I move away from my base building phase to something new. Went 5'35" with ideal weather conditions on a slightly downhill course (-60ft). I was expecting to go in the 5'45" to 6 range, so feel good about where I'm at now. Very different kind of race then I'm used to. I don't think I've ever felt that much lactic acid buildup before.

Even though my base building has had a decent amount of speed work, to date my fastest training paces are my 800-1200-1600m intervals at 5k pace (6'30"). Only faster work is a few strides a week, and I knew that wasn't going to cut it. Will try OP's suggested ladder workout next week, but I will probably have to dial back the mileage considerably because I feel the intervals are hard to recover from already at 35-40mpw. New territory for me as I've never trained that way before.

Nice progress. I only skimmed through most of the posts on here, but is that a PR?

It is! But it's also my first attempt in years. I ran 6' after a marathon training block 8 years ago. Maybe I was faster in HS based off my 400m, but never tried.

Yea I rocgonize that it is only a portion of the equation and doesn't 1:1 represent the abilities of each human but I feel this is a good generalization of the idea. Not every human has 5 toes but in a science book a good general take is that mainly humans are born with 5 toes. Ergo, generally a person with x VO2 max should be able to run x time in x race.

So I’ve posted a handful of times on this thread along the way about my own struggle and obsession with breaking 5. I suppose now that the OP’s journey is over, I can continue to post occasionally to keep the spirit of the tribulations alive.

Because there are like 500 posts, quick summary:

Curently in my late 30s. Started running in early - mid 30s getting my mile time from 5:50 -> 5:10 in about 18 months (although the latter was a net downhill of like 20-30 ft). I was focused on longer distances then, but got injured for several years.

Finally got some consistency in running again three years ago. The most recent efforts on the track:

-5:09 (April 2021), 5:08 (Oct ‘21), and then 5:06 and 5:04 this past month. Another race in 9 days. Hoping to split the difference b/w where I am and my goal.

Consistently inching there, but it’s so slow going and I’m not that far from being 40, so it’s either happening soon or not at all. I’m going at it hard this year. We’ll see if my opportunity has passed me by or not soon enough.

And yes, it’s damn hard for a regular dude. I’ve always been involved in sport to some degree even if I wasn’t a runner growing up. There’s a huge difference between going for this in HS and being an adult and giving it a go.

Good luck this weekend, let us know how it goes.

Somewhat belated pro tip: Abstain from coffee a week before your race. Drink a large cup of joe two hours before the race and head to the restroom 15 minutes before your race starts.

If there are a large number of guys in the 4:55-5:00 range, stick with them for the first 1209m and don't worry too much about your splits. If almost everyone is either under 4:45 or over 5:15, shoot for quarter-mile splits of 73, 75, 76, and give it all you've got that last quarter.