Paavo training program and burnout/injury in college.

If you were running 3 all out runs a week you weren't doing the PAAVO correctly.

Here is a couple previous discussions on PAAVO:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1684776

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=631429

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2394107

Doing PAAVO "correctly" must be a huge issue for HS coaches. I help out with a fairly well known D1 program and we won't offer any scholarship money to a kid coached under the PAAVO philosophy. At the start of summer last year we ran the numbers and out of about the 15 student athletes that we recruited over about the last 10 years only 1 of them improved in college. Most quit by their sophomore year due mostly to mental fatigue and being burn out physically from the high intensity training in HS. The kids came from 10 different schools and the results were all the same but for 1 kid. Over the same time period we brought in close to another 100 kids and had a 75% success rate. We will gladly allow a kid to walk on but we have turned down boys that have run in the 9:00's who would typically be a top 3 recruit for us because of the lack of upside.

I was coached under the PAAVO system in high school and unfortunately I would have been in the, "not improving" category as well. But I don't have a lot of natural talent so I am unsure if I would have ever been as fast as I was in high school without the high mileage and hard training collected to PAAVO. Plus I still love and enjoy running so it hasn't hurt me in the long run.

Much easier to look good as a coach when only recruiting undertrained kids.

Not good coaches wrote:

Much easier to look good as a coach when only recruiting undertrained kids.

0/10

Sounds like a Southlake thread since you mentioned a coaching change a while back.

I don't buy the paavo burnout rumors. I think people either want to get better and feel they're making progress or they don't and they don't.

Lots of things factor into this.

Paavo is basically just aerobic development running. This is why a lot of kids get pretty good quickly. It is also why they tend to stink at the 800.

The majority of the runs are based off of mile time. If you look at the pace range (ppm and CT runs), it basically covers the lactate spectrum. Is that bad? Probably not. Maybe the density is too great per microcycle, but most new kids need work in this area.

The interval progression is at least a form of progression based on HR. The low set and high set is a volume progression. The reduced recovery by using the same HR turns the intervals from something similar to Jack Daniels' early season reps to closer to actual I pace.

It is a system. A little too cookie cutter? Perhaps. It works well In affluent communities and motivates the average kid.

There are definitely better methods out there, but paavo receives a lot of over the top harsh criticism.

And before you ask - no, I'm not a paavo guy.

Seb Coen wrote:

Not good coaches wrote:

Much easier to look good as a coach when only recruiting undertrained kids.

0/10

But there is some truth to it. But from a kids point of view, what is better

a) Run 9:00 in HS and improve to to run say a 14:20 in college (i.e. slightly better but not much)

b) Run 9:30 in HS and improve to run a 14:10 in college? (very nice improvement)

I would say the guy running faster in HS probably had more fun winning all those races in HS while b gets to settle for winning b races in college and maybe getting a point or two at the conference meet (if weak distance conference).

Paavo has some strange things (It sounds like they do too many reps before a race in half of the accounts) but all in all it is heck of lot better than most HS programs. For the few mileage guys (i.e. the ones that thrive on running 70+ mpw and limited speed work) it isn't a great system. But despite what letrun posters might think, those guys are the exception versus the rule.

Paavo is simply a way to win high school state championship and give the people who are willing to work hard a chance to compete in college. Thats whats important in this sport. Every year people using Paavo sign with major D1 schools. The burn-out rumor is not true. The people who used Paavo are taught through paavo what is needed for success and how to improve. Yes, some of these kids may have been more successful in high school as compared to college and thats because college is a whole new beast. Paavo gives a bunch of people a chance to go on to compete in the college level.

EX: 2015 class

Eli Canal: Texas A&M

Luke Lanham: Naval Academy

Ansel Richards: University of Chicago

Eric Vetere: TCU

Johnny Kemps: Boston College

Eric Karl: University of Nebraska Lincoln

EX: 2014 Class

Jacob Pickle: University of Texas

Connor Hendrickson: University of Texas

Brent Aydon: Baylor

EX: 2013 Class

Trevor Gilley: Ole Miss

Joe Sansone: UNC Chapel Hill

Matt Odneal: Lamar

Regen Hatcher: Depaul University

EX: 2012 Class

Kyle Scanlan: Baylor

Nate Sullivan: University of Wisconsin

Ben Goleston: Columbia

Alex Johannssen: Oklahoma state

Take a look at this list ans say paavo doesnt work. And this is only from one school down in Texas.

That's probably a reasonable post.

Personally I hate Paavo training because it is sort of a "race to the bottom" scenario for HS students, and also because it artificially inflates one's actual ability. Of course if you're running 100mpw you're going to look better than the kid running 50mpw. I know way too many kids who ran low 15s freshman year and either burned out or got into an injury spiral and never improved.

Paavo works for some, but doesn't work for a whole lot of kids.