Break Down Paavo Please

Don't do Paavo

The plan is to get 16 year old to do 100 mile weeks. They run against kids who do 25- 40 mpw. So naturally the Paavo HS kids do great, until they get to college and suck wicked hard.

I ran paavo for about 6 months in high school. It worked really well for about 3 of them. I got in good shape really fast the problem was that by the end of 6 months I was slower than I was 2 years previous and I was exhausted all of the time. I would sleep 10 hours a night and I got blood tested for anemia, mono, and other thing but the doctor could never find anything wrong with me. I stopped it an 3 months later started to be able to run decently to where I wasn't exhausted all of the time. You can say that I am a just complaining but I ran in college had 3:50, 14:30, and 30:30 prs in college and ran 115 miles a week which most people that complain a lot I don't believe could do.

The basic program is laid out like this

Monday: Long Run

Tuesday: SPPM (Short) you run basically all out for 3 to 4 miles

Wednesday: CT you run 8-10 miles at 45 seconds a mile slower than your pace Tuesday. So for me running aroudn 5 minute pace on Tuesday meant 5:45

Thursday: LPPM (Long) you run basically all out for 6-8 miles

Friday: CT you run 8-10 miles at 45 seconds slower than your pace Thursday

Saturday: All out mile then run the length of your long run from Monday

Sunday: CT you run 8-10 miles at 45 seconds slower than your pace Thursday

Once you get to intervals you start running this wierd thing of 400's where you are running at times 15 or more miles on the track with a 400 on and then 800's off and so forth but that much work on the track really wears you down.

The point of the program is to run consecutive days and once you want to buid up mileage above what I put above you basically add mileage in the morning in the form of CT days. If you want my two cents I would not do this and I would just talk to some knowledgable people on the boards who know about Daniels or someone like that. A lot of people on the boards will be more than happy to help.

Just learn to build a base do tempos and when the race nears get some speed in and you will be good to go. You can just think of me as a complainer though.

Ok so everyone has been saying that kids get to college and they suck. WHY? I know that when I went to college I just stopped running cold turkey. Now I can't see how this program could make you suck in college. The idea is to run a lot of miles. Now naturally, I think I would tone down the mileage once in college. Wouldn't that base mileage benefit you in the long run?

The thing is, dont you build up to those distances? Like you start out on a smaller scale right?

Would it be good to start the program, progress until you start feeling the affects. I mean, i'm 26, so I know my body pretty well and I'm not trying to win a state championship 4 years in a row. I want to get my 5k down to 16 min. I think this program will be a great base. Then I can tone it down and use the knowledge from it to continue.

Seems logical to me, No?

Also, thanks for the great info, I dont consider you a complainer. It obviously worked for you and thats what I wanted to know.

Thanks PPP

whoa I think I may have led you astray. This program did not work for me. I ran a 16:20 my sophmore year of high school. After 3 months of paavo I was running 16:00 my junior year. I then after that started running slower until my low point where I ran 18:00 for 5k. I took a month off and started jogging again. I started running daniels and than my senior year ran 15:30. I would not recommend this program. You talk about wanting a base and that is the biggest problem with this program is that you do not get a base and that is why high schoolers who do it for long periods of time do not do well in college. If you want a base do not do paavo instead run easy mileage fore about 6 months with some light tempos then start adding heavier stuff. The biggest thing I can say as to why you should not do this is because there are no professional or college runners who use this method of training. I honestly believe the entire reason for it is for Mars Sellars to make money. DO NOT DO IT

Is it called Paavo but its something out of the 1920's when they really didn't understand the physiology behind training.

It seems to me putting 6 different workouts on a paper and throwing darts at it each day to see which one you did would be just as effective as what is described as Paavo.

Gotcha, sorry for misunderstanding. What is the benefits of Daniels?

I already run 40-50 miles a week. Mainly trail running. I'll do a 5k or 10k race every weekend. I do track workouts every week with a running group on Wednesdays. I have progressed nicely since "getting back into running."

I also do tempo & fartlek runs. I absolutely love running and Paavo just seemed the way to go. Especially when my old track coach attended the course and learned a lot about it. He even said its not for everyone, but our CC team went to state the first year he introduced it a few years back.

Under this system you are basically doing hard AT runs every day, there are no recovery days and no true speed and speed endurance days. it is very one dimensional and will wear down the body very quickly. its one of the worst ways to train there is.

I went to the North Camp and West Camp (hence my name) in the summer before my senior year of XC. I had been doing maybe 40 miles a week before these. On my first week at Paavo, I did 55 miles of intense running. Then I had a week between N and W camps where I did 60 miles. At West camp, I did 70 miles the first week, and 78 miles the second week. So, in a matter of 3 weeks, I wen from 40 to 78 miles.

The thing was, getting back from West camp, I was FIT. I was running faster than I ever had by far. I was determined not to lose the fitness I had worked so hard for. I ran in the morning, went to our team practice mid-morning, and ran in the afternoon. I was pulling three-a-days often. But, after a month or so of this, I felt different. I stopped improving. I was running decently, but I was mentally and physically depleted. I ended up running a PR by 30 sec in the first couple weeks, but in each sequential week, I found myself falling shorter of where I needed to be.

The more I thought about this, the more I was sure that my problem was that I wasn't working hard enough. I got up before dawn and put in miles. I put in miles after dark. I ran mornings before meets, and did tempo runs after meets. But the more I ran, the worse I raced. When my CD was at 120 days (not much compared to some, but still...) I realized that I needed a day off. I was 9 miles into a medium paced long run and fell WAY off pace. At the end of my senior XC season, when all of my HS dreams and goals were supposed to be coming to fruition, I was a burnt-out, miserabale mess. I was crushed.

Now, I am starting spring track. I have learned that it is OK to take a day off. It does not mean that you are a bad person, or that you are a wimp or slacker, or not dedicated, or anything else. I find, for myself at least, that it takes courage to take a day off. I am not afraid to take the pain, or gut out an all out PPM run, but there is a time and place for these types of runs.

I have found that it is OK to run at an EASY pace. At Paavo, you are never running at slower than CT pace, or tempo pace.

Finally, I have learned that I need to return to the basic essense of running. I now do a Sunday long run, tempo work, and make sure to take EASY days. While my current plan is not perfect, I am learning as I go.

I have nothing but respect for Mars Sellers. He is an excellent coach who knows his stuff. He has inspired me to run until I know I cannot continue, and then run some more. I would do the camps again in a hearbeat. I wouldn't trade the bonds and friendships I made for anything.

However, I believe that Paavo is not perfect. It does not work for everyone. If you have the chance, go to a camp or clinic. It will teach you a lot about yourself as a person, as well as a runner.

Your experience sounds similar to mine, though when I was in HS it was much closer to Paavo Nurmi's day!

I trained long and hard summers, and then harder during CC.

I hit my peak before mid-season and it was all downhill from there.

I like Lydiard's approach, with individual modifications, much better than "paavo."

AND, I think it is doing the great Nurmi a disservice to name a program after him that he wasn't even doing.

-another stubborn Finn

Here we go again...

Use the Search function. Search "Runningart2004 PAAVO". You'll find the most balance critique of the program. I explain everything from the PPMs, slow intervals, pace intervals, etc, etc, etc.

My personal experience? 4 years in high school and a couple years in college.

As a high school freshman in cross-country my first ever timed mile was 5:35. my first ever XC races was 20:05. I ended the year at 18:13 in cross and 4:37 in track. I ended my 4 years at 15:52 and 4:27/9:32. I progressed for 2-3 years and then plateaued. BUT, I also didn't do nearly as many PPMs in the last 2 years and focused mostly on the intervals. That may have been the problem.

In college I got hurt my first year, got fat, and really stopped running for a semester. It was so bad I was running 29-30 minutes for 8k after running mid 27 the first meet. I switched schools to a local college where the coach used the PAAVO system. The women's team made it to NAIA nationals. I improved to 26:26 and ended up 25:19 for 5 miles on the roads.

That was back in 1999.

If you want to work hard and you are pretty healthy and aren't injury prone you should be fine. There are worse ways to train.

Alan

mentality > physicality

Study Diamond training:

http://www.americandistanceproject.com/ADPWeb/Take%20The%20Lead.html

I don' trust anything Joe Newton associates with

Well, I would have also suggested Vigil, but cannot find a viable link to his book/training theory. There is this, though, which provides contact info for the lone store that I know that carries it: http://www.adams.edu/students/sub/bookstore/

Thanks Alan. That gives me some good insight. I have never been injured and I have a very rigorous job in the military (survival instructor) so my body has been beatin pretty bad from training.

I know when to stop training and "listen" to my body and I honestly think thats the problem with some folks. They keep on pluggin on THINKING they need more. Thats the root of inexperienced runners getting hurt. And I'm not bashing on anyone whos been hurt or dislikes the program. I've watched Paavo clinic dvds and they tell you to follow the program to a "T" and perfect every stage before you progress. You also are NOT SUPPOSE to do any other running other than whats laid out for you. So, I dunno, I'm doing it. Today was day two on the 3rd week schedule.

I'll progress nicely, being in the military will help my focus, determination, motivation and discipline not to get hurt.

Plus I'm a hard core stubburn finn myself --- SISU !!!

Liar.

Why is Paavo such a secretive training method that's so difficult to learn how to do? Is there not some article that breaks it down for me online, or do I need to order the one easy payment of $19.99 for the Paavo Training DVD?

The only reason I don't like it is because it's made out to be some secret training plan that you have to go to a clinic or camp or buy a DVD to learn about. Which just makes it seem like a smart way to make money doing training that yields short term results.

LIAR? and you are?