400 repeats as a 10k workout

Don't waste your time with volume if you're running them that slowly. You'd be better of doing 1K / mile repeats at that pace.

You have to run your 400m intervals at ideally 1500m - 3K pace to get a proper benefit. The real beneift will be when your legs run at 10K pace, it'll feel like a canter.

I'd suggest maybe 8-10 x 400m at 1500m - 3K pace with a 2:00 recovery if you can manage it.

Why not just do 5x1600 at 10k pace and give yourself longer recoveries

better idea for you wrote:

Don't waste your time with volume if you're running them that slowly. You'd be better of doing 1K / mile repeats at that pace.

You have to run your 400m intervals at ideally 1500m - 3K pace to get a proper benefit. The real beneift will be when your legs run at 10K pace, it'll feel like a canter.

I'd suggest maybe 8-10 x 400m at 1500m - 3K pace with a 2:00 recovery if you can manage it.

I disagree with the poster above me. Where do you get the idea that 400s must only be run at 3k pace or faster? I haven't run 400s faster than about 5k pace in a few years and I continue to run faster each season.

OP, I'd go with the 20x400 with 100 floats. I did that exact workout september 25, 2012 and here are my notes from my log:

Intervals, Notes:

2.8 WU 7:07/mi

85,24 84,23 82,27 84,22

86,26 87,25 86,25 85,22

85,27 84,24 84,25 85,24

85,26 85,25 84,26 85,24

85,24 85,25 83,26 79,24

1.97 CD 7:31/mi

total 10.97 6:30/mi

that's an average of 84mid for the 400s, or 35:10 10k pace.

the 100s were 24.7 avg, 6:35/mi avg pace

i raced a 10k in 36:07 just five days later but i recall not feeling fresh for the race. my goal had been 35:20ish. i raced an 8k (well-rested this time) on october 13th and ran 27:46, which equates to about 35:08 for 10k according to john kellogg, extremely close to the pace I ran for the 20x400.

hope that info helped

also, during that 20x400 workout, I ran 36:22ish for 10,000m. and it felt easy, more proof that the 36:07 I ran was a bad race.

You didn't run 36:22ish for 10000m feeling easy, you ran 36:07 in your 10K race.

What you did do in your training was run 8000m in 20 segments of 400m at 36:22 pace which is a very different thing.

If you focused on increasing your intensity on your 400m intervals i.e. run them at about 3K pace then you would be faster racing in your 10K.

Just do mile repeats or even 2 mile repeats if you're running your 400m intervals that slow.

My usual 10k workout is 25x400m with zero recovery.

that guy..... wrote:

My usual 10k workout is 25x400m with zero recovery.

Wow! That's groundbreaking stuff! How did that workout translate to race day?

reed wrote:

also, during that 20x400 workout, I ran 36:22ish for 10,000m. and it felt easy, more proof that the 36:07 I ran was a bad race.

If you like what Kellogg has to say, read up on what he has to say about VO2max intervals and start applying it and you will run faster than I did in 9th grade and maybe stop giving people advice about it.

you didn't do that wrote:

You didn't run 36:22ish for 10000m feeling easy, you ran 36:07 in your 10K race.

What you did do in your training was run 8000m in 20 segments of 400m at 36:22 pace which is a very different thing.

If you focused on increasing your intensity on your 400m intervals i.e. run them at about 3K pace then you would be faster racing in your 10K.

Just do mile repeats or even 2 mile repeats if you're running your 400m intervals that slow.

No you ding bat. He was doing 100m in between repeats at 6:30 pace average.

If you multiply 20x500 you get 10k. It took him 36:22 to run 10k without stopping. That is called running a 36:20 10k.

In my training group we've done a variation of the 20x400m that I picked up from my college coach. It is 4x5x400m, with 100m jog rest and 400m between sets (each set starts and ends with the standard start-finish line). The key twist from what you've written is that it is a cut-down workout, usually about 2sec faster per set. It starts at around 8k pace, then 5k, 3k, and finally not quite mile pace. We use it in seasons when we're focusing on a longer distance and have some mileage under our legs (note: we're not high mileage by any stretch). In a higher volume cut-down workout, it gets you running the hardest when you're most tired.

20x400 @ 10K is a favorite of mine. Keep the 100 jogs quick and honest to prevent you from going to fast on the 400s. Should seem easy for a while, but eventually will start to bite.

you didn't do that wrote:

You didn't run 36:22ish for 10000m feeling easy, you ran 36:07 in your 10K race.

What you did do in your training was run 8000m in 20 segments of 400m at 36:22 pace which is a very different thing.

Actually he did exactly run 36:22ish for 10000m.

Look at the session he posted again. He ran the 20 segments of 400m at ~35:10 pace, and between these (and following the final 400m segment too) ran slower 100m segments in 24.high. This is exactly a continuous run of 10000m in 36:22ish.

It's a solid workout, and it is a useful type. It's kind of like an uneven tempo run where he's exceeding LT on the 400s by a bit, and then during the 100m floats he's getting a bit of recovery while still moving at a decent pace. He's training utilization/clearance of lactate if you buy in to that physiological model. This is a session very much like some of those advocated by Peter Thompson with his lactate dynamics/new interval training stuff, and a lot like a formalized version of fartlek sessions done by countless athletes off the track for ages.

I think his problem leading in to that 36:07 race was not really giving the workout he described enough respect. That's some serious work, and requires real recovery in order to fully reap the benefits and come fresh for the next effort.

24 version in my opinion. recovering at a fast pace is going to be a lot more helpful during a race if you go out a little harder and then you can chill for a half mile or so and get your strength back up without losing ground

better idea for you wrote:

Don't waste your time with volume if you're running them that slowly. You'd be better of doing 1K / mile repeats at that pace.

You have to run your 400m intervals at ideally 1500m - 3K pace to get a proper benefit. The real beneift will be when your legs run at 10K pace, it'll feel like a canter.

I'd suggest maybe 8-10 x 400m at 1500m - 3K pace with a 2:00 recovery if you can manage it.

I have been doing both of those workouts for years, since I realize they are the better ones. I just want to try something different - I don't think mixing it up for a single session over my entire cycle is going to make or break my race.

Thanks, all. I think I'll do the 20x400 next week since it got the most votes. I might try a 5k variation on the other one in the spring.

OP, for 400s at 10k pace, 1:00 recovery seems like to much to be an effective stimulus.

If you are just trying to 'mix it up,' you could try 10k-HM pace workouts totaling 8-10k or so with a variety of oddball intervals (like 700s, 1100s, 1900s, or whichever), on 1-2 minutes recovery.

If you really want to do something based on 400s, definitely take active recovery, and not just shuffling. I like "in and out" 400s: you can start alternating between 10k pace and 15s/lap slower than that (for you, ~1:30/1:45), and as it goes on bring the fast ones down toward 1:20, with the recovery lap in whatever it takes.

When ever I am planning a hypothetical workout, I like to plug in some elite times to see just how hard it would be:

20x400 @ 10k pace with 100m recovery:

For Mo Farah:

400s in 64-65

100s in 20

Those are some fast 400s, but I would think Mo would have no problem with them. With the recovery intervals, he would cover 10000m in around 27:30-27:45. That's cookin'.

12 x 400m at 1500m pace with 1 minute recovery is probably the best you can do, even if you're training for a 10km.

I once did 16 x 400m in beetween 3km and 5km pace resting only 35 seconds. These would be about 6 seconds slower than the ones above.

I'ts a different king of fatigue, slighlty easier in my opinion.

Here is an alternative (although it may not be to your liking as it is off the track).

How about a fartlek instead? Keep the "on" at 10k pace and the "off" at your easy pace. Say 2min on and 30s off (in line with your track options)? This is very flexible in terms of tweaking the on-off segment and the recovery segment.