new mexico cross country women

Franklin didn't take any shortcuts or lack a sense of fair play. That is garbage. Everything he did was fair, honest, and within the rules. He did the best he could given the cards dealt at good ol' UNM. Should he have turned Auckland, Renfer and Frerichs away and given the money to US girls that would struggle at D2 or D3 levels? Hope he continues to get the best he can from wherever he can find the talent.

no shortcuts taken wrote:

Franklin didn't take any shortcuts or lack a sense of fair play. That is garbage. Everything he did was fair, honest, and within the rules. He did the best he could given the cards dealt at good ol' UNM. Should he have turned Auckland, Renfer and Frerichs away and given the money to US girls that would struggle at D2 or D3 levels? Hope he continues to get the best he can from wherever he can find the talent.

I assume you're fine with Qatar and Bahrain poaching kenyans too.

Look, it's obviously not cheating but to turn your head and say that it doesn't lessen the victory a bit...well I think that's a little hardheaded.

I guess I'm hard-headed... If Molly Seidel calls Stanford and says she wants to be a Cardinal next year (she still has track eligibility in 2016-17 after ND graduation - and seems smart enough for grad school at Stanford) should Milt say "no Molly, can't let you run for us, because if you win NCAA 10K championships it wouldn't really feel like a Cardinal victory." ???

no shortcuts taken wrote:

I guess I'm hard-headed... If Molly Seidel calls Stanford and says she wants to be a Cardinal next year (she still has track eligibility in 2016-17 after ND graduation - and seems smart enough for grad school at Stanford) should Milt say "no Molly, can't let you run for us, because if you win NCAA 10K championships it wouldn't really feel like a Cardinal victory." ???

What UNM did is not cheating, it's not unethical, it's not wrong in any way. It just lessens the victory a bit.

Yesquestion wrote:

Your understanding of the situation is incorrect. The purpose of these teams is not to develop NM talent. The purpose of these teams is to win. It's not lazy and it does not affect the development of local talent.

No, everyone understands it exactly as it is (because it's very straightforward): rather than giving scholarship funds to domestic talent that may be non-tier 1 talent, a coach can shortcut his way to success by recruiting already-established foreign runners.

Put yourself in their shoes though and then ask yourself if you'd care. You probably wouldn't, as it's within the rules, and you can make yourself appear to be much more than you are.

The only thing that I would hope would be avoided is any significant praise from the community, or self-promotion from the coach, based on the success of teams that heavily depend on said already-developed imports (...since my dog could be just as successful of a coach with the same team).

We're good - I just don't think it lessens it one bit. Just like I don't think Stanford would feel that a hypothetical Seidel NCAA championship in Spring 2017 as a Cardinal on the track would feel somehow "cheap." Stanford would proudly proclaim her to be another Cardinal NCAA Champion.

agip wrote:

it's not really xenophobia - more a sense of lack of fair play, a sense of shortcuts taken.

After looking at Franklin's rosters going back to his Butler days, he has always had a healthy stock of Northern Europeans on his rosters (averaged about 13 a year when he was at Butler, 16 a year at New Mexico) and he has been consistent at that level for years. It looks like he has allocated about 6 of his men's scholarships and 10 of his women's scholarships to foreign athletes while at New Mexico. So the idea that he would recruit and develop domestic talent is a false one. He has been fielding rosters like this since he became a coach and he is likely going to stick with it. The idea that New Mexico and some of the surrounding states lack the talent is false. The Adams State women won the D2 national championship this past weekend. Their top 2 and their #6 runner are all from New Mexico.

no shortcuts taken wrote:

Franklin didn't take any shortcuts or lack a sense of fair play. That is garbage. Everything he did was fair, honest, and within the rules. He did the best he could given the cards dealt at good ol' UNM. Should he have turned Auckland, Renfer and Frerichs away and given the money to US girls that would struggle at D2 or D3 levels? Hope he continues to get the best he can from wherever he can find the talent.

There are plenty of good American girls who would like to run at New Mexico. And judging by the many good ones in the recent Division 1 XC meet, they wouldn't be struggling at the D2 or D3 meets.

Do you really think the NM coach looks at any of this? He looks at the runner's bio and tries to fill his quota with that. He's obviously not interested in recruiting, coaching, and developing runners from this great country. He just wants to get up on that podium and pretend that he is accepted by his peers who choose not to take shortcuts.

Is he out spending other teams in D1? Is Oregon or Stanford taking short cuts by recruiting King Ches or Grant Fischer? Why don't they just take the best kids in their state and develop those kids? Why cherry pick the BEST kids in the US?

Obviously you have never been a competitive runner at the D1 level (or otherwise) or you wouldn't be saying things like this. It is not the winning that counts, its the taking part. Because someone doesn't win an NCAA title doesn't mean that their time (and the effort spent on them) was wasted.

hulksmash wrote:

Stanford doesn't need to recruit foreign athletes because the value of their education and degrees allow for them to select from the top domestic talent. The UNM's of the world don't have this luxury. Perhaps if they string together a few year's of success this will change (see OSU, Northern AZ, etc.). Franklin is doing everything right. If it were so easy to just bring in foreign talent and win every race then you'd see every school doing it. Not the case, and not so easy. Congrats to the Lobos and the University's first championship program.

Not every school (not many, for that fact) does what the NM coach does because most coaches (i'd like to think) have some things that this guy doesn't : 1. A sense of fair play, 2. Actual coaching ability, 3, A need to be accepted by his peers, 4. A long memory.

Of course Franklin doesn't look at the UNM budgets - like other coaches he just gets his allocation of money and then goes shopping for the best students he can find to run XC and track. His mission from the AD is pretty clear: as he said, he is expected to get the top NM runner and then get the best from anywhere in the world. This year he did exactly that. I'd expect him to get a nice raise or bonus this year!

Also - sure he would love to have US runners of the capability/potential of Wright and Auckland choose to come to UNM, but he didn't (and you can see how few there are at that level), and so he'd been freakin' crazy to turn them away. Also would have been nuts to tell Frerichs to run elsewhere.

I think he cares very little about what other coaches think... as he knows they are all wondering why they didn't pursue Auckland, Frerichs and Renfer.

By the way - great coaching job with Renfer - amazing improvement from last year. Though some on this board will for sure say that anyone could have improved her that much given the talent she was training around.

woof woof woof go lobos!

I'd actually have no problem with a $20 surcharge on my tuition to go straight to the women's program (and another $20 to the mens). Franklin does very well with what he has. Show up at the state meet, and you'll find him sitting by himself high up in the stands, writing down notes on the top state talent, in order to try and convince these kids to come to UNM. as another (astute) poster said, there's a dozen or less kids in NM that are actually D1 nat's capable (long term), so why give money to someone who will never score, when you can get a 12pointer, even if it's only for one year.one last point, this poster also mentioned about training partners. These 5th yr grad students will be at UNM for at least two yrs to obtain their masters, even if they only have 1yr of eligibility. Thus, they become "Grad assistants" and are able to train with the rest of the team. ergo, they are still helping their old teammates, by giving them badass training partners for another yr (or more). so the argument that they're "one and done" is actually more false than it initially appears.we're proud of Franklin here in Abq, and no reason anyone else shouldn't be too....unless you've an ax to grind or just like your grapes to come in sour flavor

tax argument baseless wrote:

I'd rather UNM use my tax dollars on getting the best student athletes (like Franklin is doing) no matter where they are from. This year, it has been a great return on investment for the State of NM.

biting the hand wrote:

Do you really think the NM coach looks at any of this? He looks at the runner's bio and tries to fill his quota with that. He's obviously not interested in recruiting, coaching, and developing runners from this great country. He just wants to get up on that podium and pretend that he is accepted by his peers who choose not to take shortcuts.

You're rambling nonsensically.

This is moronic. Already developed imports? Your dog could be as successful? Shortcuts?

First, lets see how many top 10 teams are actually only recruiting Americans.

#1 New Mexico - Already established they have a bunch of foreign athletes.

#2 Colorado - 0 foreign athletes on their roster

#3 Oregon - 4 foreign athletes on their roster(Norway, Canada, Australia, South Africa)

#4 Providence - 4 foreign athletes on their roster(Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland)

#5 NC State - 2 foreign athletes on their roster(Canada, Austalia)

#6 Michigan - 2 foreign athletes on their roster(Canada, Austalia)

#7 Ok State - 6 foreign athletes on their roster(UK, Norway, UK, Lithuania, Norway, Lithuania)

#8 Notre Dame - 0 foreign athletes on their roster

#9 Arkansas - 4 foreign athletes on their roster(UK, Canada, South Africa, Australia)

#10 Washington - 1 foreign athlete on their roster(Canada)

So 2 of the top 10 programs have only Americans. Guess just about everyone is taking your shortcut.

Now lets see how New Mexico's Athletes have done since coming in

Courtney Frerichs - Arrived Fall of 2015. 13th in 2014, 4th in 2015. Was already great but still improved.

Alice Wright - Arrived Fall of 2013. Was Injured all of 2011-2012 and 2012-213 before arriving at New Mexico. PR before arriving was 9:39 3k. Now runs 15:45 and 32:46. Massive improvement and has stayed healthy since arriving.

Rhona Auckland - Arrived Fall of 2015. Was amazing before arriving. Only top 7 athlete that you can legitimately say hasn't gotten better since coming to New Mexico.

Calli Thackery - Arrived Fall of 2013. Had 4:21 and 9:27 PRs coming in. Now has 4:15 and 9:07 PRs. Improved every year at NCAAs in xc.

Molly Renfer - Arrived Fall of 2015. Went from 18th in the Northeast region to 24th in the whole NCAA. Massive improvement.

Heleene Tambet - Arrived Fall of 2013. Had a 17:37 5k PR coming in. Now has run 16:48 and 34:32. Massive improvement.

Whitney Thornburg - Arrived Fall of 2015. Went from 42nd in the Northeast region to 109 in the NCAA. Large improvement.

There is a case for saying Frerichs and Auckland were already great before coming and Frerichs still improved. For the other 5, they have improved dramatically to get where they were.

Don't like foreign athletes in the NCAA? Just about everyone that's good does it. Think its a simple matter of bringing in talent and collecting a 1st place trophy? Tell that to Stanford and Oregon. Those two schools have more talent than the rest of the NCAA combined and got demolished by New Mexico.

sweet emotion wrote:

Not every school (not many, for that fact) does what the NM coach does because most coaches (i'd like to think) have some things that this guy doesn't : 1. A sense of fair play, 2. Actual coaching ability, 3, A need to be accepted by his peers, 4. A long memory.

I don't know the NM coach but am sure he has a much higher sense of fair play than you and your peers.

Thank you 'i care about it'! Great note!

Franklin is doing a great job - and happen to know the girls love and respect him. I hope he is able to recruit well (US citizen or not) and that they return to the podium next year.

Lobos! NCAA Champs! Deal with it!