why do elite ultra-runners weigh more than elite marathoners?

For what it's worth, there was an article in the Journal of Applied Physiology a few years ago called "Sacrificing economy to improve running performance—a reality in the ultramarathon?":

http://jap.physiology.org/content/113/3/507.long

The basic argument was that some of the factors that make you a fast and efficient runner at shorter distances may end up working against you at ultra distances, so it's worth making a trade-off. One of the examples given in the paper is that having greater leg muscle mass, though it makes you less efficient, helps you to withstand muscle damage during prolonged running, which is a much more debilitating factor in ultras than at shorter distances. That doesn't necessarily mean that ultra runners weigh MORE than marathoners at a similar competitive level, but that it's possible to have a greater variability in body shape/size in ultras than in marathons (where you truly can't be competitive, for the most part, if you have tree-trunk legs).

Or, the amount of money in marathons and a federation that is okay with doping means elite marathon runners are PED fueled, skinny, Frankenstein's.

Anton, 160 lbs

Dean, 155 lbs

Scott Jurek, 165 lbs

Max King, 135 lbs

Tim Olson, 165 lbs

Joe F, 155 lbs

Have you ever seen ultra runners eat? It is shocking to observe. They can shut down an all you can eat buffet.

This article was theory from 2012. As taken from the link I posted on the first page (including a study from 2013):

somequickones wrote:

Anton, 160 lbs

Dean, 155 lbs

Scott Jurek, 165 lbs

Max King, 135 lbs

Tim Olson, 165 lbs

Joe F, 155 lbs

All 100 miler types, except for King - who is more trail/mountain marathon/50K/50M.

100 milers are a wildly different beast than the marathon.

"Likewise, another study of 62-mile ultramarathon participants found that training volume and marathon personal record were the best predictors of ultra performance, far stronger than body size."

Of course they are! No one is suggesting that being bigger provides more of an advantage than training more. The question is whether, at a given training level, the same body types predict success in marathons versus ultramarathons. Logically speaking, you can't answer that question with a study that looks only at ultramarathoners (much less with studies of 17 and 19 participants, where a failure to find a correlation has a high risk of being a type II error).

As for the Millet et al. paper, it's from 2012, but he was presenting the same hypothesis at the Endurance Research Conference just last month. (And as I'm sure you know, Millet is probably the most prolific and respected ultra researcher out there over the past decade and a half. He's not just making stuff up.) As you point out, the leg muscle idea is nothing more than a hypothesis at this point, because the data to answer it one way or the other doesn't yet exist. But the studies cited in the RunnersConnect article certainly can't answer it -- especially since none of them even measured leg muscle mass.

Can't we collect money for a B-list Kenyan to do an ultra? Let's say we pay a 2:08 an appearance fee for a 100k one year and a 100m next year. Plus an incentive for a win, like 5 times the appearance fee.

Visa issues should be sorted out, maybe a European race?

If we escrow the money in a kickstarter fashion and the BroJos backing it this could possibly be done seriously.

jaguar1 wrote:

It's actually not true that elite ultrarunners fit any different of a body type than marathoners. Runner's Connect did an article on this. Having added "bulk", esp. the upper body, actually hurts rather than helps performance.

http://runnersconnect.net/ultra-training/size-ultramarathon/

I'm 5'9 1/2"/118 lbs and have had a farily successful move from the marathon to ultras.

5'9" 118?????

That's kinda unhealthy dude

Except the dude is not a dude.

You must be new around here.

cool kid wrote:

jaguar1 wrote:

It's actually not true that elite ultrarunners fit any different of a body type than marathoners. Runner's Connect did an article on this. Having added "bulk", esp. the upper body, actually hurts rather than helps performance.

http://runnersconnect.net/ultra-training/size-ultramarathon/

I'm 5'9 1/2"/118 lbs and have had a farily successful move from the marathon to ultras.

5'9" 118?????

That's kinda unhealthy dude

showing your ignorance there. Jaguar1 is a woman and by a fairly successful move into the ultras, she means being a world champion.

serious question OP wrote:

but isn't calories burned determined by distance - with any discrepancy in burn negligible?

that is: cal burned 1 mile running fast = cal burned 1 mile running slow

They are always eating when they run

Why do they all wear trucker hats?

dsfdsgfdfads wrote:

Ultras are just less competitive, so a wider range of body types succeed. Does anyone doubt that Emmanuel Mutai or any elite marathoner would make a joke out of every ultra runner on the planet if he so desired?

Ultra running is not one sport - it´s many. I don´t have any doubt that world class marathoners would dominate road ultras up to 100 km, but a race like UTMB where you run/hike 160 km in the Alps with a total ascent of around 9000m and use ski poles on the uphill is a completely different sport.

When you come to the really long ultras (multi day) it´s no longer a question of traditional running ability, but the ability to stay awake, being able to tolerate stuff that´s not a problem in traditional running: dehydration, nausea, chafing, huge blisters, even hallucination - none of which East Africans cope better with to my knowledge.

Easy Answer wrote:

Because they aren't elite runners.

This is the real answer. Might as well ask why the top finishers of your local small prize marathon weigh more than elite marathoners.

I think ultra running is super cool, but "elite" ultra runners are the best out of the selection of normal people who take up ultra running. If the sub 2:10 marathoners took up ultra running, they'd dominate.

People keep saying this but it is uninformed. It is the same thing as saying Abel Kiprop would win all the marathons if he only tried. I mean, he is faster at shorter distances than marathoners so he must be faster at marathons too. Anyone with common sense about running and training knows this isn't true, especially for marathoners running 50 miles and up.

dsfdsgfdfads wrote:

Ultras are just less competitive, so a wider range of body types succeed. Does anyone doubt that Emmanuel Mutai or any elite marathoner would make a joke out of every ultra runner on the planet if he so desired?

elephino wrote:

Easy Answer wrote:

Because they aren't elite runners.

This is the real answer. Might as well ask why the top finishers of your local small prize marathon weigh more than elite marathoners.

I think ultra running is super cool, but "elite" ultra runners are the best out of the selection of normal people who take up ultra running. If the sub 2:10 marathoners took up ultra running, they'd dominate.

You mean like Gert Thys? 2.06,33 marathon PB. Has started in a number of ultras, among them Comrades. Almost never finishes.

New to the forums.

Who is jaguar1?

Someone said world champion?

Truth teller! wrote:

elephino wrote:

This is the real answer. Might as well ask why the top finishers of your local small prize marathon weigh more than elite marathoners.

I think ultra running is super cool, but "elite" ultra runners are the best out of the selection of normal people who take up ultra running. If the sub 2:10 marathoners took up ultra running, they'd dominate.

You mean like Gert Thys? 2.06,33 marathon PB. Has started in a number of ultras, among them Comrades. Almost never finishes.

To be fair that 2:06:33 was like 10+ years in his past. The counter point would be a washed up Al Sal winning Comrades. Of course comrades is also a different race than a 100 miler.

I am guessing if you took 100 sub 2:10 guys and had them train for 1 year, a couple of them would totally dominate the ultras. But figuring out which of those guys would be dominating one is tricky. Just like there are numerous 10k/hm guys that don't excell at the marathon (see wejo. A 28 min 10k guy who isn't running sub 2:15) , you will find out that some marathon guys can't do ultras. But the ones that can will dominate.