College training paces, coach wants me at 6:00-15

HSCoach wrote:

I hope you are a troll. But sadly, you may be an actual college coach, probably one who is coaching one of my former high schoolers. Lazy coaching in my opinion. Why would every athlete on your team need to run the exact same pace as every other one unless they are all clones with the same times, same mileage background, and same injury history?

Not a troll and you're athletes would be lucky as hell if they ever got a chance to run in my program. I am certainly not requiring each male athlete on my team to run 6min pace with zero regard to who they are, what they are capable of, or where they are in that continuum. Without giving a novel, I was generalizing, as the OP did, on what I would expect a decent recruit to run at the D1 level. Is that cut and dried? Of course not! Lol, do you honestly think they hand out D1 head coaching jobs to completely unqualified morons? If you truly believe that then you are just plain ignorant.

Now for the science lecture- please tell me the most important element of a distance runner? Answer- VO2 max and the mental ability to endure pain. Vo2 max is a derivative of ones aerobic capacity, aerobic training is linear and correlates directly with fitness and adaptation to training.

If you think your D1 athlete is getting their most important training sessions done on Monday/Wednesday/Saturday then you are completely blind to the fact that the most important training system is built on all the other days of the week. Yes, recovery is vital, but finding the balance between running too fast and wasting a valuable aerobic training session is the key.

My comment above was merely inferring that a decent D1 athlete, who has put in a good base of summer training, should have no problem running 6-6:15 pace on their runs. In fact it is essential if you want to achieve at the highest level. If you aren't there yet, have that discussion with your coach because that should be the target of your goals.

I think I saw a video by Al Sal, he said Galen and Mo easy long run pace was something like 5:30. Hard long run pace like 5:12 or 5:13, If I remember right. So last year my senior guy HS, in July was, say a 10 mile, at easy long run pace 6:35. Hard long run was about 6:19. Then I let him decide as easy long run went to 6:23, I asked isn't that fast? He said no he was fine. Hard long run pace went to 6:05 to 6:09. Again he said he was fine. He was, he did real well at Footlocker. So I guess what I'm saying with my mess here is, the 6 to 6:15 sounds about right to me. Maybe your coach is not real concerned with easy and long run pace per say, and saying he wants you in there between 6 and 6:15. IMHO, does sound right. Just my opinion guys don't scream at me.

I have run a 14.20 5k, during my steady runs at that point I barely ran under 8min/ml. I was running at 5.45am before work. I made sure I smashed my workouts in between steady runs

925runner wrote:

In high school I ran about 50-55 miles a week with pb's of 1:59, 4:26, 10:03(only got to run it once and was sick). I am trying to run in college and the coach told me that the team's average pace for their regular runs is 6:00-6:15 which seems fast since most college runners I've talked to said they ran their runs at about 7:00. What paces did those of you who ran in competitive colleges run for your average runs? Trying to run for Fresno State by the way. Right now Im at about 65 miles a week averaging right around 6:20 pace but I have done a 10 mile at 5:59 pace.

Is the 4:26 for 1500m or mile?

That sounds more like your tempo pace and too fast for long runs

Wait and see what pace they run at - thoe coach saying it and them running it are 2 different things

So the OP just said in a recent comment that they haven't started workouts yet. This means the team is still just running mileage. Given this and the OP's PR's, I'd say that somewhere around 6:10 - 6:20 sounds about right for 60 miles a week of base running. Once they start running workouts, I'd expect the pace on easy runs to get a bit slower.

If you ask 10 college runners who run the same 5k time what pace they run their mileage at, they'll give you 10 different answers.

On my team (prominent DI program FWIW) we would argue about this among ourselves nonstop. Our coach didn't specify easy run paces and we had guys running 5:50s and guys running 7:20s. In a sense, that's the only "right" answer-- the best training pace is whatever works best for you (within reason). For a million different reasons, people respond differently to the same training, so you need to just find what works for you and work that out with your coach.

After months of arguing, my coach said this: You all need to be running easy enough on easy days that you're recovering properly from the last hard workout and prepared for the next one. But what that shakes out to in terms of pace per mile can vary day-to-day and person-to-person. So instead of being a slave to your watch, listen to your body.

If you're concerned about it, talk to your coach. He should listen and either explain to you why it benefits you to run the pace he's specifying or modify your training to suit your needs. If he can't reasonably justify his instructions or is completely unwilling to compromise, he's a shit coach.

Well, you'd be "lucky as hell" (which doesn't sound so lucky to me) to get my top boy this year :-) Since I don't know who you are, maybe you will be so lucky if your team is a top 10 team this year. Because he isn't looking at any other teams.

I have a degree in Ex. Phys so no need for the lecture. Let me ask you this: Since VO2 max, according to you, is the most important element of a distance runner (which not everyone would agree with, BTW, since there are significant differences in VO2 max among elite endurance athletes) and VO2 max is a derivative of an individual's aerobic capacity, which is developed by aerobic training over time (but clearly has a large genetic component), why would you want to train a kid so hard that he can't even absorb the training he is trying to do? It sounds like "run them so hard they either develop or quit" because they are burned out, injured, or just have had the love of running sucked out of them. It just seems to me that you want to train an athlete at a level where he can come back and do the next workout successfully, not die a slow death as the season goes on. How does that foster development? I would think we agree on this.

Wouldn't you agree that we can't say that "All DI distance runners should be able to do such and such as soon as they arrive on campus?" I mean, not all DI programs are even remotely equal, performance wise. I would think that a not so good program would be wise to take a less developed kid with less impressive times but good potential and be patient with developing this kid. That is all. From my limited perspective as a high school coach who has sent a few kids to DI schools to run over the years, it seems like not all coaches do that. It seems like many of the coaches of the best programs DO do that, but the mid-level ones DON'T. And I will readily admit that I don't think that just because a coach is a DI coach he or she is qualified and a good coach. They probably aren't "completely unqualified morons" but that doesn't mean they are all good coaches either.

I wouldn't disagree with your overall points about listening to your coach and that posting this on letsrun is a pretty dumb move by the OP. It will take 2 seconds for the Fresno coach to know who this kid is and he wont be happy about this. What makes you sound like a complete dick and out of touch with reality is your "pathetic road racing career" comment. Sure letsrun bloggers like to troll people with slow times but if you actually think there is something pathetic about road racing then youre f*cked. Running competitively is a rather selfish sport and who the f*ck cares how fast you are. I run 80 miles a week and will do a half marathon here and there in the 1:12 range and find it pretty fun. I find it fun to sometimes run with people much slower than me just for the social aspect of it. There is nothing all that impressive about being a fast runner in the grad scheme of life. I also have a full time job and can almost guarantee you that I make more money than you but I guess I should give up running since doing road races is pathetic..... The only people that care about D1 running programs are other runners that think running is life. The rest of the population could care less about it.

Just run how YOU feel. In 4 years in college, almost every run for me was a great effort. We close a lot of our 6-8 milers in sub-4:40/mi pace, just competing with the guys. We had a big, talented, competitive team. I never wanted to lose a single run, a single practice.

Just get out there and hammer and those 6:00/mi will feel so much easier. As malmo always states, let the runs turn into "tempo" runs all the time. My coach never assigned, nor probably knew what a tempo was or what tempo pace was, but our runs naturally progressed to a pretty quick pace.

This god-like coach for whom everyone would be lucky to run has a skewed view of what a decent or average DI runner is (which actually makes sense if he really is coaching a top-10 program).

A decent time for a DI runner is not the same as a decent time at DI XC nationals.

This kid ran 4:26 for 1600 in high school and wants to run for Fresno State. Ease up on the throttle, Bowerman Jr.

OP, you've gotten some great advice here in this thread (including in that first response--it's true that you should listen to your coach). I guess what I'd add is that it's not just about listening to your coach, but also talking to him. Took me too long to figure that out. It's okay to have a discussion as long as you understand that he knows more than you.

Just don't feel that doing two easy runs a week at 6:16 pace means you're not even decent.

This nonsense show me that you don´t know shit about training and keep making stuff up.

When I ran in college I ran around 6:00 pace for my "easy" runs. In retrospect, I think this was to hard of a pace given my fitness level.

The key is to ask what is the purpose of the run? If it's meant for recovery then running hard makes no sense. If it suppose to be a strength or tempo run then running a hard pace makes total sense.

If aerobic conditioning is the goal, then once you reach the aerobic threshold you are getting the benefit running harder, especially if the run takes you past your anaerobic threshold is counter productive and a recipe for overtraining or overuse injury. If your pace is 7:00 then your pace is 7:00 at this time. As you become more fit, your easy pace may drop to the 6:00-6:15 pace in the next few years.

Save the hard running for your hard days and give your body a chance to recover and get stronger and faster.

925runner wrote:

In high school I ran about 50-55 miles a week with pb's of 1:59, 4:26, 10:03(only got to run it once and was sick). I am trying to run in college and the coach told me that the team's average pace for their regular runs is 6:00-6:15 which seems fast since most college runners I've talked to said they ran their runs at about 7:00. What paces did those of you who ran in competitive colleges run for your average runs? Trying to run for Fresno State by the way. Right now Im at about 65 miles a week averaging right around 6:20 pace but I have done a 10 mile at 5:59 pace.

There's a difference between easy running and steady state running. At only 60 to 65 miles per week, you should be able to do most of your daily runs at a steady state pace, which is what your coach is having you do. As someone else said, a 100 miles per week is a different beast and you'll have to slow the pace down to get that kind of volume in. Maybe try to increase the volume next summer but for now you'll have to follow your coach's plan.

6:00 min pace for only sub 14:00? you are so full of Sh78T, my god where do you people get this from? What have you run? You have absolutely not idea what you are talking about.

Good High School kids run 6:00 min pace, a lot of college kids easily do that.

Running sub 14 has NOTHING to do with logging mileage at 6:00min pace has ZERO Direct link.

You are a complete moron get off the boards!

If you think 6:00 is too fast than you picked the wrong sport, this sport requires hard work and a set of iron forged balls!

fred wrote:

What's the big deal. 5 seconds a mile faster.

Well it was a big deal in 1942 when the world record was 4:04.6 and the 4 minute barrier thought to be impossible!

925runner wrote:

In high school I ran about 50-55 miles a week with pb's of 1:59, 4:26, 10:03(only got to run it once and was sick). I am trying to run in college and the coach told me that the team's average pace for their regular runs is 6:00-6:15 which seems fast since most college runners I've talked to said they ran their runs at about 7:00. What paces did those of you who ran in competitive colleges run for your average runs? Trying to run for Fresno State by the way. Right now Im at about 65 miles a week averaging right around 6:20 pace but I have done a 10 mile at 5:59 pace.

1. If you are going to be on a college team, you have to do what the coach wants you to do. The last thing a coach wants is to let a guy onto a D1 team whose times are questionalbe for that level and then have that guy undermining the faith in his training that the other guys on the team have because of stuff he read on the Internet.

2. Despite point #1, I think there is almost zero reason for you to run 6:00 minute pace on your easy days. An easy day is supposed to be about recovery and mileage. I'd prefer honestly that you would slow down and run more.

Please read Weldon's "Why I sucked in College" article. HE couldn't break 30:00 but ended up running 28:06 because he ran too little and too fast in college.

You don't get any credit for running 'medium pace'. If it's not a tempo, then all the pace is doing is wearing you out. Of course, you aren't running that much so the less you run, the faster it needs to be.

I have run a 14.20 5k, during my steady runs at that point I barely ran under 8min/ml. I was running at 5.45am before work. I made sure I smashed my workouts in between steady runs[/quote]

My HS runner also ran a 14:25 on the track. Don't get me wrong I wanted long runs at easy pace. Like others say here maybe you have a high end workout in a few days coming. He said no 6:35 is just a bit to slow, I felt just fine at 6:23. I'm thinking ok, will see. I send him on the Tempo later in week at high end...he hits it and kills my pace splits. I'm looking at my logs for Sept. last year. I was trying to slow him down on long runs..he was at 6000 ft. Nope he seemed comfortable at 6:23 and about 6:08. Tell you one thing there is a lot of good info from you guys on here. This kind of thread should be read by upcoming runners, I say good stuff and really appreciate you guys taking the time.

I ran for a D1 program at altitude. First year seniors pushed every run to 6 or below. Many were FL guys in HS who thought they should have improved more. I was burned out, tired, and didn't race well. Most improves but it was marginal. Next year seniors were gone and recovery days were at 7 or slower. Everyone's speedwork improved, prs came in droves, team killed it. Had several all americans. That was the only material change. Slowing down on recovery is so important.

Way too fast!