rojo wrote:
I think the LetsRUn nation should crowdsource $25,000. If the clock is under 13:20 at 5000 in Beijing in the middle of the 10,000 we pay it out to whoever did the leading. If the other two Kenyans want to split it, so be it.
I'd like to see something like this too, or simply compensation based on final times and how close to WR. Such incentive has helped immensely in the marathon.
J.R. wrote:
rojo wrote:I think the LetsRUn nation should crowdsource $25,000. If the clock is under 13:20 at 5000 in Beijing in the middle of the 10,000 we pay it out to whoever did the leading. If the other two Kenyans want to split it, so be it.
I'd like to see something like this too, or simply compensation based on final times and how close to WR. Such incentive has helped immensely in the marathon.
Correct.
The problem with intermediate times is that inferior runners always make that their primary goal and then jogs into lousy final times.
jjjjjjj wrote:
The 10k adjustment is obviously crazy for altitude athletes, but 4:25 to 4:13 isn't that crazy. What I liked was that it had 4:5x worth 6:10 or so at 13,000 ft, which was just about right for me in high school when I spent six weeks at that altitude in Potosi and ran a 6:13 mile with spikes on the track at the end. I was very slow and hadn't broken five at sea level as a junior, but I felt like I was flying at 8,000 ft for a few days in Sucre and then just moving when I got back to Cali--no races to prove it, however.
More seriously, the fact that these three did work together today, that Karoki has often been perfectly willing to break out on his own in a 10k (e.g. Stanford 10k a few years ago), and that at least two of them have been based in Japan, as far as I know, gives some hope that they'll try. But they'll have to go better than 26:35 pace in good conditions to burn Farah's kick.
Ok, I agree w/your assessment about the way these guys should approach the WC, and I think they will try, knowing that's the best chance to beat Mo. They are very fit.
But c'mon. I know you are generally a reasonable guy, but that calculator has a 4:27 at 5,500' converting to 4:13 at sea level. That's 14 sec. I ran in HS at 5,500', and scaling this for two miles as the calculator does, that's about 30 sec, double the allowance that the NCAA conversion chart gives. I've seen plenty of guys go down to run at sea level, and no way do they come close to dropping that much time, especially in the mile, though they do run faster.
Two seconds per lap is the generally accepted rule, less so for events from the mile on down.
Kiprop's show reminds me about the doper Christian Hesch who dropped to the ground and did push-ups before crossing the finish line.
but he must have been an awesome runner to run so fast like that.
26:45-50 (subtract about a second a lap for runners born/raised closer to 8,000 ft and running at 5,500 ft). This race wasn't rabbited, so it is clearly not the fastest they could have run at that altitude, even if they did alternate pacing. No question that running at 5500 ft makes a big difference for non-altitude runners. I dropped 25 seconds per mile from 11M tempo at that altitude to race at sea level for a half. But it is different when you are coming down in altitude from even higher, and these guys have not had any sea level 10k's below 26:50, nor 5000m races under 13(?). So, I'm not going to just grant them a world record level. Kamworor was pivoting to the track for the 10k in Eugene, so I don't think that was his best. He looked very sharp here. He can break 26:30 now.
ventolin^3 wrote:
Farah Assessment wrote:It would take 26:2x fitness to outmuscle Farah, and this guy hasn't shown us thatsimple logic dictates that for even an altitude born guy, there has to be an altitude clocking that equates to a 26'20 at sea-level
if you don't think it is 27'11A, then suggest a number...
J.R. wrote:
I think the Kenyans purposely sat on Mo at Pre to play with his mind and not slow their cards. They appeared to be quite comfortable, and didn't even kick hard at the end.
Kamworor has the opposite style of running to Farah, very quick and powerful, the same for Karoki and somewhere in between for Tanui. They can run hard all the way as they did at WCCC and even moreso on the track. I'm very excited to see the race at Bejing.
Sorry, bro wrote:
Those dudes just aren't that smart.
What you meant to say was you just don't think, they are that smart.
1/10. This is not a troll-rating, but rather your correction-rating. Why, you may ask? Well, for all the bad grammar in just this thread alone, THIS minor issue was your chosen correction? For the love of God, how many times does "ran" get used as the past participle instead of "run?"
jjjjjj wrote:26:45-50 (subtract about a second a lap for runners born/raised closer to 8,000 ft and running at 5,500 ft). This race wasn't rabbited, so it is clearly not the fastest they could have run at that altitude, even if they did alternate pacing...
ventolin^3 wrote:simple logic dictates that for even an altitude born guy, there has to be an altitude clocking that equates to a 26'20 at sea-level
if you don't think it is 27'11A, then suggest a number...
that doesn't make sense
canova already said his boy, kiprop, who held previous best at 27'26A was capable of 26'40 ( iirc he said 26'35/26'40 ) & same caveats apply to his time with iirc, mutai making a strong pace to the bell
if 27'26A = 26'35/26'40 from canova
how on earth does :
27'11A = 26'45/26'50 ??!!
also, race reports suggest kipsang did all the damage in the last lap(s), meaning taking out good few seconds on field at the end
he is clearly a level beyond any other kenyan & that alone offers him a very very fast 10k ability at sea-level
grammarian's evaluator wrote:
1/10. This is not a troll-rating, but rather your correction-rating. Why, you may ask? Well, for all the bad grammar in just this thread alone, THIS minor issue was your chosen correction? For the love of God, how many times does "ran" get used as the past participle instead of "run?"
The correction was not to the grammer, but the meaning of the sentence.
ventolin^3 wrote:
jjjjjj wrote:26:45-50 (subtract about a second a lap for runners born/raised closer to 8,000 ft and running at 5,500 ft). This race wasn't rabbited, so it is clearly not the fastest they could have run at that altitude, even if they did alternate pacing...ventolin^3 wrote:simple logic dictates that for even an altitude born guy, there has to be an altitude clocking that equates to a 26'20 at sea-level
if you don't think it is 27'11A, then suggest a number...
that doesn't make sense
canova already said his boy, kiprop, who held previous best at 27'26A was capable of 26'40 ( iirc he said 26'35/26'40 ) & same caveats apply to his time with iirc, mutai making a strong pace to the bell
if 27'26A = 26'35/26'40 from canova
how on earth does :
27'11A = 26'45/26'50 ??!!
also, race reports suggest kipsang did all the damage in the last lap(s), meaning taking out good few seconds on field at the end
he is clearly a level beyond any other kenyan & that alone offers him a very very fast 10k ability at sea-level
What it all means is that all of these "conversions" are not scientific and it is not possible to give an exact number. Clearly a 27'11 at A is an outstanding mark and likely worth something better than that at sea level. How much is up to some interpretation and speculation.
ventolin^3 wrote:
if 27'26A = 26'35/26'40 from canova
Did Canova actually say that? Or did he say that guy was capable of 26:35/26:40? There's a big difference.
Feels like we've had this conversation with Kamworor before. And he ended up getting his doors blown off. No one will beat Mo at 10000 this year. As has been mentioned, 3:28 and a 26:50 and a 59:30 show that he has all the tools. He won't be out kicked and he won't be run into the ground.
oh please wrote:
Feels like we've had this conversation with Kamworor before. And he ended up getting his doors blown off. No one will beat Mo at 10000 this year. As has been mentioned, 3:28 and a 26:50 and a 59:30 show that he has all the tools. He won't be out kicked and he won't be run into the ground.
26:50 and 59:30 are nowhere near "all the tools". His endurance is very lacking compared to truly good 10k runners. Someone running 26:30-40 would likely beat him.
Kamworor wasnt peaking when he last raced Farah (at Pre?). Farah was peaking.
Mr. Obvious wrote:What it all means is that all of these "conversions" are not scientific and it is not possible to give an exact number
they are as "scientific" as anywhere you will find on web
they combine the ncaa app which is gold-standard tool for altitude conversions anywhere on web, but clearly they only seem to convert for aerobic handicap & not include less air-resistance of altitude
therfore combine with wind-altitude calcultor which is gold standard for it's field
combining both gives figures many experienced observers woud expect for an altitude conversion
Clearly a 27'11 at A is an outstanding mark and likely worth something better than that at sea level. How much is up to some interpretation and speculation.
for kenyans mostly all brought up at altitude, i doubt for 10k the final number is more than +/- 5s out
before someone brings up the interminable paul kipsiele who is always claimed can't run at altitude, let me point out his nairobi best is 8'13.98 for 4th in a race won by by kemboi in 8'13.56 in trials for '08 games
he lost a mass sprint finish not ground into the dirt by the altitude
no one makes the pace in a kenyan trials race over 3ksc so it always comes down to the sprint which is his real weakness not ability to run at altitude
the nairobi best ever is 8'11.73 by brimin in '12
Okk wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:
if 27'26A = 26'35/26'40 from canova
Did Canova actually say that? Or did he say that guy was capable of 26:35/26:40? There's a big difference.
it was like pulling teeth trying to get a firm answer from canova about this as he apparently stopped coaching kiprop some years ago & said he had very little contact with guy in run-up to games when still his coach !!!
let's put it this way :
the fastest 10k by a kenyan last near-decade is by lucas in 26'43 in brussels '11 when kennster barely edged him in a sprint
lucas made all the running last coupla laps & if the pace hadn't been set-up for a derisory 26'50 race, he wouda most definitely gone ~ 26'35 that day with faster earlier pace, so much running did he have in him last few laps
now no offence to lucas, but he was barely a kenyan 2nd string & in virtually certainly better shape in kenyan 10k trials for games held in eugene following year he coud only finish 6th in 27'09 in race awesomely won by kiprop in 27'01
if 2nd string guy like lucas was capable of 26'35 if he'd got faster earlier pace in his pb, a guy like kiprop who was a quantum leap better than this guy shouda annihilated 26'35 at his peak
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