How Slow Are You Able To Run And Still Aerobically Benefit?

helpmeout! wrote:

Fogruner,

I'm still very confused :)

So are you saying that as your aerobic engine gets bigger, you can run faster at the same or lower heart-rate, but ALSO that you can go faster and higher HR without crossing your lactate threshold?

But then you said Vo2max is probably genetically linked (which I agree with). But then you say you're doing workouts at 200bpm, which is surely way above your Vo2max and way way over your lactate threshold. My guess is your Vo2max has got to be around 175-185 based on your age, and your lactate threshold definitely below that, but then you seem to be saying that you do a lot of training in the 180s or above, which wouldn't seem to make sense given then mileage.

Paragraph 1, yes

Paragraph 2, not quite. I didn't train at 190+bpm. I hit 190+bpm in races.

My buildup began about October 1st, and extended into March. Each February I ran a hilly 10 mile race, sprinting the last 880yd all out for HRmax. In March-April I'd do 3-4 spring 5Ks. In mid April and late May I'd do 1 road mile each month. Hilly trails & grass thru the summer, with 2-3 hour EASY hilly weekend run at ultra slow pace, about 135bpm, 155bpm for short hills. Beginning in September, I'd point for 2 races with upper aerobic/lactate threshold training: a max effort early November 5K and 1 road mile (2 road miles were available. I'd go max in the one with the best weather). So I ran 10 serious races all year. My goal was 1 mile and 5K, my best distances.

Japanese Marathoners ...

McGuckin Hardware wrote:

Lots of volume at a very slow pace, punctuated by occasional fast track workouts of the 1 - 3k variety and tempo. Pace at times can be 8 - 9+ per mile and often includes walking. Between runs and walks - up to 3 workouts per day. Also, long runs 30K - 40K+ starting very slow, gradually increasing the pace until race pace is reached in the last 5-10K. Slow training is often done in full sweats and in what we would consider racing flats. Most training is done under the watchful eye of the coach and assistants. Barefoot/sockfoot jogging around the infield of tracks.

Scroll down and look for "walk" note the number of times "walk" and "walk + jog" occur, and this is for a 2:06 marathoner.

Japan cranks out < 2:10 marathoners like they crank out Toyotas.

Fogruner,

How long are you in 190+ bpm in your races? Sort of related to my last question, but if you're able to maintain190+ bpm for a 10 mile race, that would mean you are running at way over your V02max for 10 miles...is that even medically possible?

helpmeout! wrote:

Fogruner,

How long are you in 190+ bpm in your races? Sort of related to my last question, but if you're able to maintain190+ bpm for a 10 mile race, that would mean you are running at way over your V02max for 10 miles...is that even medically possible?

In the first couple of spring 5K's I'd be at 190+bpm for about the last mile.

Again, I wasn't anywhere near hyperventilating, I felt good. I think that I was just well conditioned and my heart was well rested.

About 182 is the highest HRavg I've had for road 5K's of 16:41 and 16:38, but I know I peaked around 190 by the finish...can't recall exactly what it was.

About 180 is the highest HRavg I've had for 10 miles, going above 190 and 200 in the last 880 yards. Yes, I did have an attack of the dry heaves when I stopped. "Dude, are you okay? Want some water? Hell of a kick!"

The highest HR I can hit in a flat 1 mile race is about 180...the race is just too short. But I did run a road mile about 3 years ago that went uphill the first 600m, then gentle downslope the last 1,000m...into a steady 17mph headwind. At the half mile my HR monitor was alarming at 200bpm, and at the finish line it was 216bpm. I ran 5:00.0, the the #1 age-graded time that day.

My resting HR runs from 40-48bpm.

And I reviewed my training again today. My aerobic base period runs begin at about 65% of HRmax, and rises to 80% of HRmax. As it turns out, that's just what Jack Daniels recommends for aerobic base building.

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I came across an interesting point reading Jack Daniels today. He writes that the heart beats with maximum FORCE when it is beating at a RATE of about 60% of HRmax. Fascinating.

Fogrunr

Do we go by the feel of our legs or 60% max heart rate or 75%? What does 60 and what does 75 feel like?

The answer to this question is hard to capture with words. I think it's actually worded in such a way that shows your understanding of the matter is...well...I get the feeling you are young.

You could ask "how fast are you able to run and still aerobically benefit" and it would tell you the same thing.

Progress is more of a neurological thing. As such, I would encourage you to run in slow motion; you'll probably find out you don't know what the heck you're really doing when you run, you're just sort of flailing forward.

White Fox wrote:

Do we go by the feel of our legs or 60% max heart rate or 75%? What does 60 and what does 75 feel like?

I'll talk in a moment about what I learned about monitoring recovery heart rate after 1 minute and 2 minutes.

But first, I'll talk about what 60% and 75% feels like.

Last Friday I met with an group of 5 ultra runners and did 19.2 miles (2x 9.6mile loop) in a state park trail with lots of little undulations and just a few half mile hills. We went super easy, about 14:30 per mile running and hiking. My HRavg was 116bpm, and my HRpeak was 173bpm. The 173 was due to me running the last 1Km as hard as I could. Otherwise I never went over 144 during the run. Anyway, our run-hike took 4hr43min to do. After about 2 hours of that super easy pace I could feel my lungs really opening up and I just really felt energized. The effort wasn't hard, but I could tell that I was getting a strong aerobic benefit. By the last 3 miles I was chewing at the bit, getting ready to push that last 1Km. And it felt great! It was like I had a super great warmup, because I ran as hard as I could through the hills straight to the finish. So it was a patient, easy, pleasant 18.6 miles with a .6mile kick at the end.

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60% feels a lot like that run-hike with deep, relaxed breathing at a conversational pace the whole way. It will maximize oxygen to your body tissues and leave you feeling great.

75% will have you breathing more deeply, and at a faster rate, and it will feel mildly challenging, and pleasantly invigorating. You will feel "pleasantly tired" at the end, as New Zealand coach Arthur Lydiard liked to say.

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I tell people "There's really nothing hard about building an aerobic base the way I do it. I found the heart rate zone that works and is comfortable, a pace I can train at for 5-6 months on nice, soft grass and trails. I experience the seasons changing, and on the grass and trails I don't have to worry about cars, just an occasional mountain bike. I do most of my training in the quiet hours of dawn and just before dusk. It's very relaxing."

Peace,

Fogrunr

Monitoring recovery heart rate.

My first heart rate monitor was a Timex Ironman, and it has a function to record HRrecovery when I stop. It records that last HR when I stopped, and then the HR after 1 minute or 2 minutes (I have to select which before the run).

So I started tracking my HRrecovery. I did it at the end of my runs. Soon I was recording both my 1 minute and 2 minute recovery data in my training log. I looked at how many beats my HR dropped in that 1min and 2min period, and I looked at what HR it dropped down to. "Which is more important?" I asked myself. "How can I use this to tell me when I am stressing my body optimally during my aerobic base building, and during lactate threshold runs, and how hard was that race that I just ran?" "And can I possibly monitor a short 1 minute recovery DURING a run to tell my how I am handling that run?"

Here's what I came up with.

*The 1st minute reflects mostly how hard the last part of the run was.

*The 2nd minute reflects mostly how hard the entire run was.

*What matters most is what LEVEL my HR drops down to after 1 minute and 2 minutes. And the magic marker is 120bpm.

Example: After a very easy run, my HR Rec1min is down below 120, say 115bpm, and my Rec2min is down to say 105bpm. That's a nice, easy run.

After a moderate run, my HR Rec1min is down to 120bpm, and below 120, say 110-115bpm. After a hard run, my HR Rec1min is down 130bpm, and Rec2min is down to 120bpm. And after a very hard race my HR Rec1min is down to 13xbpm and 13xbpm in each category. That's a HARD effort that will take several days to recover from.

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If I want to find out how far your HR can drop (how many beats difference it drops), I do what I did last Friday. I go for a long, easy run of about 1 hour (it doesnt' have to be 4 hours!), keeping my HR nice and low. Then in the last 1Km or 1mile I run as hard as I can, driving my HR as high as it can go in that period. Last Friday here's what I got:

Rec1min 172>120 = 51bpm, Rec2min 172>110 = 61bpm.

That tells me that I ran hard the last part, but the overall run was not overly stressful. Also, I note that my HR dropped an extra 10 beats from 1 minute to 2 minutes, which from experience is a good sign of not overstressing myself.

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HR monitoring during a run.

During my runs of greater than 30 minutes, I pause for 1 minute to check my HR Rec1min to make sure (for an easy run) that my HR is falling below 120bpm in that 1 minute. If the run is a long one, say 15-20 miles, checking it every 5 miles or so will tell me how the cumulative effect of the run is taxing my body. It helps me take the guess work out of how I'm traiining.

You really seem to think you are "all that"

Fogrunr wrote:

Monitoring recovery heart rate.

...

This is quite interesting. Thanks for posting it.

all that and then some wrote:

You really seem to think you are "all that"

What in the world makes you think that?

#1 age-graded time that day... wrote:

all that and then some wrote:

You really seem to think you are "all that"

What in the world makes you think that?

mostly that.

If you´re HRavg was 116 at an average pace 0f 14,30/mile then you´re pathetically out of shape.

I find that unbelievable too. I barely cracked 37-minute 10k, but at that heart rate , I can run under 8:00 per mile.