400m and 800m discrepancy

nice wheels, you'll get there wrote:

swoon wrote:

You're calling us numbskulls? Yet you think 1:57 is going farther than 22.3?

Neither time is going to do anything.

A 22.3 gets you like a 48-49 second 400 which is where he is already. That will be good for high school, but might not make the 4x4 team in college.

But a 48-49 second 400 could make him a sub-1:50 800 runner or sub-4 miler. Yes there is years of work to do before he gets there, but it's where his ultimate best potential lies.

His problem is he is severely undertrained. I ran 50-point (FAT) in high school but only broke 17:00 once for 5k. So I only ran 4:30 for the mile. A year or two of better training melted over a minute off my 5k time and 15 seconds off the mile time easy. He just needs better training. Long runs, tempo runs, all that jazz.

Couldn't you apply the same concept if he went the sprint way? As you say, a 22.3 isn't going to do anything. But put in the work and he can get the 400 and 200 times down to where colleges will take notice.

Why are you convinced you are a 400/800 guy, when your times much more clearly point to you being a long sprinter.

Quarter-Half Miler wrote:

He took my 4:40 mile without training as an indicator of me being a middle distance runner and has made me do distance workouts as opposed to my sprinting workouts last year.

What? You run a 4:40 with 22.3/49/1:56 and your coach thinks you're a middle-distance runner?? This boggles the mind.

Here is some perspective: a guy I coach runs 4:40 off of 57/2:07. A guy that slow can race you to the line in the mile, and you think you're a mid-d runner??

I would be of the opinion, along with some others, that you are naturally a sprinter. I would call yourself a 400m runner and train for that event. I know a 400m runner who has a 50 400m and a 1:59 800m, you are around the same really in terms of 4 to 8 conversion.

Not everyone is a middle distance runner, if you are good a sprinting you will find it hard to develop the endurance aspect required for the 800m.

Look at Wariner, everyone on LetsRun thinks he would run 1:45 or faster for the 800m because he is so fast over the 400m, and I will say it again it simply won't happen.

Basic coaches think that performance is all based on the training type and energy systems, but you cannot change the muscle fibre types in your leg muscles in one season of xc running. It will take years and years. Train for what you are naturally best at. Do the 800 to help with your best event; the 400m.

When I ran 1:56/1:57 I could only run 53 in the 400m at best, but I had a 4:07 1500m.

Given the replies that lean towards the 400. How should I train? Currently i do 12-16 200s at 26-27 and 8 400s at 63-66

If you convert your 400 to 800 as well as Alberto Juantorena did (1796 Olympic 400 and 800 champion) you can run 1:54 or so. Here is a post where

Renato talks about workouts that got Marcello Fiasconaro (first guy to run 1:43xx) the world record:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5460433&page=12

Scroll down about halfway for Renato's stuff.

In this thread, the advise about cruise intervals is good too.

Let us know how the rest of your season goes!

nice wheels, you'll get there wrote:

swoon wrote:

You're calling us numbskulls? Yet you think 1:57 is going farther than 22.3?

Neither time is going to do anything.

A 22.3 gets you like a 48-49 second 400 which is where he is already. That will be good for high school, but might not make the 4x4 team in college.

But a 48-49 second 400 could make him a sub-1:50 800 runner or sub-4 miler. Yes there is years of work to do before he gets there, but it's where his ultimate best potential lies.

This is retarded thinking. This guy is literally in his second year of running and for some reason, you assume his 200m time is near maxed out? Clearly this guy is a 400m guy and there's no reason to think why his 200 won't drop down at least past 21.5 in the next few years.

It boggles my mind when distance runners just assume that speed is somehow not trainable.

I agree with this. It always astounds me how to most distance guys a sprinter that has run a 22.x 200m and 49.x 400m is the next world record holder for the 5000m, rather than a decent sprinter.

OP, if you have run a 49 400m off not much specific training then don't be tempted by these poorly educated distance folk to run mileage etc. Do some true 400m training including pure speed work, lactic workouts and speed endurance workouts. Your speed will improve, get down to 22.0 in the 200m and your 400m will drop also.

Good luck.

those times are great for a junior in high school, so be careful listening to advice that anyone on here has to offer... it seems to me that you are progressing fine for a 2nd year runner.

i do agree that your potential in the 800 could be phenomenal, but given that you are only in high school, i wouldn't worry about that yet... alot of schools would be interested in you with you're current times as a junior, and if your 400m speed gets to 48, but your 800 doesn't drop, i think most coaches would assume there is something missing from the training.

As it stands, for you to run 22.3, 35.xx, 49.xx, and 1.22 for 600m, off of repeat 400's and 200's that are below race pace, then it says alot about your natural speed. and i do believe you could run an awesome 800 if you introduced some more mileage/threshold training.

However, if you have not done any sprint specific training, i do not think you have come close to tapping into your full sprint potential either.. accels, hot zones, bungees, things that will get your leg turnover up and have you racing sharp will probably drop time in the shorter races.

If you don't like where you end up as a sprinter, the 800m is definitely a viable option, you would just need some modification to your training.. at the end of the day, no one can force you to run an event you don't want too.. but i too believe the 800 could be your best race some day

Quarter-Half Miler wrote:

So what workouts would you guys recommend for 200m and 400m training? Most of my training involves 12-16 200s at 26-27 and 8 400s at 63-65

Here's a suggested training schedule for the 400m developed by Clyde Hart, the coach who trained Michael Johnson. I did the 50-100-150-200-250-300-350 workout yesterday. It was... challenging... to say the least.

22.3 is the kind of 200m ability seen in well trained 1:46/1:47 guys. Also, it is the kind of ability seen in 49/50 second 400m guys.

Which do you think fits the OP more closely?

The chances that the OP is going to be a very rare Juantorena type are possible, but slim. The reality is that he is a probably a 400m runner with the potential to be very good. sub 50 is a great time for someone new to the sport (akin to a 1:55 in the 800m).

If you had great natural endurance and were able to run sub 50 in the 400m then I would say go for the 800m, you would probably do very well.

But if you were the type to respond well to endurance then you would be running better in the 800m already, and the mile.

Off 15 mpw I could run 1:55 in the 800m, and was much slower over the 400m than you.

Based on these responses I'll ask my coach to do more sprint work with me. I wanted to hit 48 and maybe go under that this season as well as hit 1'53. One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm fairly skinny for a sprinter. 5'11" and 138 lbs so I look pretty small compared to my competitors haha

Yeah look at Wariner. Everyone says he should be an 800m guy cause he was skinny, but he is in fact built to be the 3rd best 400m runner of all time. You don't need to be big and built really; Kirani James at London 2012 was skinny as well.

Quarter-Half Miler wrote:

Based on these responses I'll ask my coach to do more sprint work with me. I wanted to hit 48 and maybe go under that this season as well as hit 1'53. One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm fairly skinny for a sprinter. 5'11" and 138 lbs so I look pretty small compared to my competitors haha

In 2020 we are all going to be digging back into this thread while we watch this guy in the Olympic 400, 400h or 800.

Good luck, man!

Haha thank you everyone for the feedback and advice!

To train to run any great race, especially the 400, you need to run your shorter repeats as fast as your faster split in the race ie 200s at 23-24 and 100s at full relaxed effort. You also need longer and slower than pace runs. I think you have potential in both 400-800 distances run both if you can. The 4x400 relay at the end of the meet is a great speed workout and will help your 800. As you mature your strength will improve and one of these distances will come to the front. Running the 200 in meets is good also if you can. Good Luck

So I managed to run a 21.6 after doing some more speed. I've yet to compete in an open 400 this season