How to improve marathon time

Run more.

Yeah, that's a good solution. I would if I had the time. Unfortunately I don't.

Your description sounds very similar to what mine would be, though I am looking to go sub-3:00 this fall, not 2:45. You present a difficult issue, as you do not have more time to run. I might then say: get more comfortable at target marathon pace. Make your marathon pace segments a bit lengthier and work on making that 2:45 pace seem "normal." I, too, do not particularly like the speed work and 10k work, and so I understand your perspective here. You have time, and so a gradual build-up is fine.

I tried that route and it did get me faster. I took me from 2:59 down to 2:51, but then I plateaued there for 3yrs. So I did more threshold work last season and it finally took me down to 2:48:03. For us geeks on the metric system sub 2:48:48 is the hallmark of sub 4'00/km :-)

I didn't have a plan though, so I probably didn't set up my season in a good way. Just wonder how to train over the summer to gradually feel more comfortable at, say 6-pace, before going into M-phase.

Don't mean to be a douche like the last guy but I think you've maxxed out your potential at this mileage and shorter race times. To get better, you need to be at 55-60 normal weeks and max out at 70-75. Work on improving your shorter race distances and then progress to marathon specific training.

I think most of the guys who have said up the mileage a bit are right. But don't get too hung up on mileage. Work on the things you need to work on and the mileage will come. Ideally, 65-75.

If you were one of my runners I would move you to a V02 max and then an anaerobic phase to get your 4.0 mmol levels improved. I would like to see a sub-17:30 5k time before trying for the 2:45. Once that happens I would repeat a full training cycle for the marathon.

Right now I have a guy that is pretty similar (although he is 39). His 5k PR is only 19! We've got him working on same stuff I mentioned.

So for V02 stuff we're doing 1000's up to miles with longer rests - 400's (this allows him to run each interval harder). Also doing some As Fast As Possible (AFAP) work like 40, 60, 80, 100 meter sprints with long rests. Again, right now to encourage him hitting these as hard as he can. We may do these up a hill depending on how he's feeling.

So many slow twitch guys like you make this same mistake by continuing to train what you are already good at. What happens is your Aerobic threshold and your Anaerobic threshold are too close together. We see this when a guy's 10k pace is almost the same as his marathon pace. Most people train too long like this and they hit a plateau. (like my guy)

Thanks for the input! Appreciate it! I have done 17:18 for 5k (5yrs ago) and what do you know, that was after input from a local elite runner telling me to get on the treadmill and force myself to move faster. So I did anaerobic work at 5'10-5'30 pace like 1min, 2min intervals. I did that for 3wks and then I did 17:18. Maybe I should've learnt something...

Today, I can probably do around 18:00-18:20. Straight up.

For the Vo2 1000's, for slow twitchers like myself, is it more appropriate to take longer rests in order to be able to keep the tempo on all reps? I noticed that if I keep the rest at 1' (doing 8-10x 1000@10k speed) I tend to gradually increase acid so the last reps are a lactic acid torture, making me extremely sluggish and have me running like newbie that had a toilet accident while trying to run too hard..

Another note on Vo2: looking at a table for a, say 2:52 marathoner, I should do 1000s at 3:37/k, but since my profile is skewed, should I start a little bit slower and gradually build up so I get there eventually, then lower the rest and then keep working on it until I get them down closer to 3'35 etc, because if I just try doing 3'37/k straight away, I kill myself mentally and physically.

I actually started doing sprints! of 100m with full recovery at 70-90% max speed at the end of my easy days. I'm trying to do them at least twice a week 8-10 reps each time. Maybe I should increase this as well.

As for the milage, I probably can get it up to around 60, 70 during the summer period maybe. Not that I don't want to, but house, kids, work etc. makes it a bit difficult. I was more thinking that I should have this fast twitch fiber deficiency that just focussing on that in it self should be enough to bring me down to 2.45, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

I am a slow twich guy, too--18:57 5k PR...though that was strictly off of base training (this winter). As far as age is concerned, I am 46. I have come very late to running, and I tend to fear that my age may begin to work against me soon. Hence, I am hoping to grab that sub-3 this fall.

+40 master looking to go 2.45 wrote:

Yeah, that's a good solution. I would if I had the time. Unfortunately I don't.

Man, I've done some runs at odd times in order to get mileage in. Like heading out the door for a 20 miler at 8:00pm on a weekday after the kid is in bed. It's amazing how many miles you can get in if you truly make it a priority.

Nah, you'll be fine to grab that sub 3. If you quite new to running there's much to improve on. You still have a good 4-5yrs to go sub 3 I think. When I did my first sub 3, I did 18:45 for 5k and 39:00 10k. Then I ran 2:58:57 with a 1second positive split. Don't think age, just do as best as you can with what you have and believe you can do it. Keep it up!

minong wrote:

+40 master looking to go 2.45 wrote:

Yeah, that's a good solution. I would if I had the time. Unfortunately I don't.

Man, I've done some runs at odd times in order to get mileage in. Like heading out the door for a 20 miler at 8:00pm on a weekday after the kid is in bed. It's amazing how many miles you can get in if you truly make it a priority.

Yeah, so have I :) I don't mind that from time to time. I also have tried to increase mileage up to 70 which wouldn't be too hard if I run to and from work. But doing that made me feel quite fatigued after a while so it felt like it worked against me, not for me. And that was doing easy 7'45-8mi pace. Dunno why. Maybe I increased too much too soon.

Yes, you probably increased too soon and didn't give your body time to adapt. I think you're pretty lucky to be able to run 2:48 on such low mileage. When I ran 2:43-2:49 range at a slightly younger age (just before turning 40,) I had to peak at 80-100 mpw.

+40 master looking to go 2.45 wrote:

But doing that made me feel quite fatigued after a while so it felt like it worked against me, not for me.

Well that's the rub of increasing mileage. You initially just feel the fatigue and don't see the results right away. But trust me, the body will adapt and you'll get faster. Might it take 6 months? Possibly, but it'll happen eventually.

It is a big question whether you have plateaued when you hit 40. I ran 2:47 and 2:47 when I was 41 and 42. Since then, my marathons have just been crap even though I was expecting to sail down under 2:45 with ease. Workouts and races indicate much better marathons than I have been able to put together recently. I run plenty of miles (max out at 70-75) and do big workouts and long runs. But have not seen any improvement.

I will be 45 at my next marathon. I think I am just going to go with a completely different training plan this time around and see if that helps. It seems that training can very quickly get stale when you are a master. If not from a physiological stand point, from a mental stand point. I find myself bailing on workouts that start to get too hard too early and getting down when I have what feels like a good workout, but it turns out I did it faster a year before.

As a 44 year old that is hoping to better my 2:54 PR, your post saddened me.

Ah man, I know that feeling. I did 2:54-2:52 every year for 5yrs straight (age 37-41). I almost stopped running completely. Then I decided to do a full reset and discard my own expertise and try a totally diffrent program. And it worked! It took me to my elusive goal of 2:48. So I got the heart back into it again. Now I'm certain I can go 2:45 if I get some more speed, mileage or both. Go for something new man! Keep up!! Got to go to sleep now, sorry for not answering all other post in this thread, I'll be back tomorrow.

Nice discussion guys...

+40 Master. That reboot was the best thing. I keep telling my runners you cannot keep running 2, 3, 4 marathons a year and expect to get better if all you do (or are doing) is training for marathons.

If Ryan Hall would immediately stop what he was doing and go back and become the best miler he can, then 5k runner, then 10,000, etc., he'd get his mojo back in about 1-2 years time. Like Rupp is doing...

I move my guys through a pretty thorough system where I try to make sure we've squeezed all the toothpaste out of the tube starting right at the bottom (Hadd's terms). So a very systematic aerobic training phase where we try to move our 2.0 mmol level (Aerobic Threshold - or approximately marathon pace) as far to the right on the graph as possible before we begin to move into any sort of V02/Anaerobic work. I like to have them race a half at the end of the AT phase.

We usually start with longer LT intervals as we begin them move into V02 and work to shorter intervals. Call it a cross over from LT work into V02 max work. For V02 max work I usually always have the slow twitch guys run hard and take long rests. So even with 1000's I'll give them 400 meters or even stand still rests of 2-3 minutes. I like to have them begin racing some 5k's at this point too to get some markers we can use for our harder work.

+40 master looking to go 2.45 wrote:

Yeah, that's a good solution. I would if I had the time. Unfortunately I don't.

Yes you do. Wake up 15 minutes earlier and that's 2 more miles a day, 10+ more a week. You just don't have the ENERGY to run more, but that's okay, over time you'll adapt to the mileage and 70-80 will feel like 60 used to.

If you choose not to then forget running a fast marathon. But at 43 the time to see how fast you can go is NOW or NEVER. If you choose NEVER then so be it, just don't pretend like you don't have time.

This is a excellent thread. Thanks for the pep talk, +40 master. My coach has said the same thing, and I believe him (he knows my running well by now), but it is nice to hear it from another source. I wish you all the best with your quest for 2:45. We should keep each other posted.

Precious Roy: changing your approach is a great idea. May you succeed this fall. I just registered for my fall marathon choice yesterday. My right leg is finally feeling better, and so I thought I would get in before the price increase.