Segregation in Track and Field: Black Kids=sprinters Rich White Kids=distance runners

THANK YOU!

End of discussion

So Wigins would like a reference.

"In a colossal study of 715,000 blood donors across America, researchers wrote that African-Americans exhibit a 'lower genetic set point for hemoglobin,' regardless of environmental factors like nutrition. Like sickle-cell trait, genetically low hemoglobin--all else being equal--is a genetic disadvantage for endurance sports." The Sports Gene, David Epstein, p. 178. Original article from the Journal "Transfusion," 2010.

Also, as to your second point--the rates of SST outside of Africa are WAY lower than inside western and central Africa, and yes, on average non-Africans of any group would have shorter legs than they average west African. I think SST is a minor factor, but it matters. Add all the factors together and you get what you would expect--lots of fast sprinters of West African descent and a few from other genetic groups mixed in here and there.

I'm willing to grand Rojo and Epstein their basic premise, which is that pure will isn't enough and "genetic background" (I've put quotes around it because the specific genes that would create the relevant difference haven't been isolated) make a difference.

Still, it's clear that culture makes a large difference, too. Genes without culture--a culture that prioritizes and encourages running excellence, as Kenyan culture encourages distance running excellence and black collegiate culture (in the SEC, the HBSU system, and elsewhere) prioritizes sprint excellence--aren't enough. You need culture.

But the individual matters, too, because genetic makeup ACROSS racial/ethinic groups is widely variant, too. A Jim Ryun or Dave Wottle will always emerge, and excel. And culture, too, can't be strictly confined to racial/ethnic groups.

One of the most talented and important black R&B bandleaders, Johnny Otis, wasn't black. He was Greek. (And of course the irony here is that the greatest ultradistance runner of all time is Greek.) Johnny Veliotis. But he grew up in and was socialized in black neighborhoods in the East Bay (California), married black, and essentially lived as a black man.

Yes, the exceptions prove the rule--which is to say, Rojo and Epstein are right, more or less, about the rule(s). But there are exceptions. And that fact is precisely why only a foolish white boy runner would presume, a priori, that he was incapable of winning any given race. Even big races.

Nor would I tell a black golfer, for example, or a black girl who played tennis, to give it up before trying to make a go of it.

Here's Johnny Otis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOrQTh_Cq7U

rojo wrote:

Every country has good white sprinters besides America? Really?

I\'ll answer your questions and another one. Why does Kenya have horrible black sprinters? It\'s very simple. It\'s called genetics.

This should help you out:

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2013/07/sports-gene-by-david-epstein-a-must-read-for-all-coaches/

Some people are better made for certain sports and positions in sports. Why don\'t you start a thread entitled, \"Why are there no 6\'1 centers in the NBA?\"

It amazes me that people think all humans are the same genetically.

as far as non black guys only 1 white guy and a cuban ahead of Samson Kitur and Charles Gitogna on the all time 400m list... if horrible is an Olympic Bronze medal and a sub 3:00 4x4 sign me up.

Low hemoglobin doesn't mean high anaerobic efficiency. Lousy endurance doesn't mean great sprinter. If this is Epstein's "sports gene," he is a nut case.

West African descent??? What about the West Africans themselves?

For that matter, what about the East Africans? SCT rates in Uganda are up to 45%:

SCT is common between the tropics all around the world. I expect Epstein says the Rift Valley tribes have good endurance due to low SCT. But why aren't the other east African tribes good sprinters? Do they have short legs too? Are long-legged people so prevalent in West Africa that they outnumber all long-legged people in the rest of the tropics?

No. All this genetic digging is an exercise in confirmation bias. Athletic performance can't be taken out of the context of how athletes are trained and developed, how motivated they are, the popularity of sports in their countries, their level of access, and countless other relevant factors. You can't quantify or control for these things, but you can ignore them and go questing for the answer you want to be true.

West African descent??? What about the West Africans themselves?

Bad Wigins is right Racingthe, it is not West Africans who have dominated the sprints.

It is mixed-race men of West African AND Northern European blood ie. AfroCaribbeans, AfroAmericans, who (currently, for whatever reason) dominate sprinting.

Do you see differences in physique between a typical

Kenyan, European, West African?

success in a particular sport breeds a culture of participation in that sport

Our college team had a 4x100m relay of four white guys that ran 39.9. Not shabby.

Bad Wigins wrote:

RacingtheCantaloupe wrote:

West Africans, like the Igbo of Nigeria, via an unintended consequence of a genetic trait that originally aided in malaria resistance (sickle cell trait) have picked up a more efficient anaerobic metabolism.

Even if this unreferenced claim is true, SST is much less common among African-Americans than West Africans, yet Americans school Africans so thoroughly that most of Nigeria's elites are US-born.

And where is this supposed anaerobic advantage among the hundreds of millions of non-Africans with SST? I suppose they all have short legs?

The Nigerian Elites that are US born are Crap.

Out of the dozen sprinters of nigerian descent that have run sub 10", all of them were born in Nigeria (and I'm not counting those British born nigerian)

Bad Wigins wrote:

Rich white kids play tennis and swim. Only runt rich white kids ever go anywhere near a track.

Good sprinting has nothing to do with genetics, not on any racial basis at least. It is just about development. In America, sprinters are developed primarily to play football. Most are developed in the south, where you can train all year. Because of a shameful episode of America's history, there are a lot of black people in the south. There are also a lot of football coaches who believe that a black kids have more potential as sprinters and put them in speed positions even before they are faster than other kids.

If all the black sprinters from the south were fast because of genetics, African sprinters should be kicking their half-white behinds all over the place. They don't. There is no racial advantage in sprinting.

they do. Try to compare where they actually live in the same environment : Europe.

Here is Europe sub 10" sprinters :

1 9.86 AR 0.6 Francis Obikwelu 22 Nov 78 POR

2 9.87 NR 0.3 Linford Christie 2 Apr 60 GBR 1

3 9.91 NR 0.7 Churandy Martina 3 Jul 84 NED 2s1 OG

3 9.91 1.1 James Dasaolu 5 Sep 87 GBR 1s2 NC

5 9.92 NR 2.0 Christophe Lemaitre 11 Jun 90 FRA 1

6 9.95 0.9 Jimmy Vicaut 27 Feb 92 FRA 1h2 NC

7 9.96 NUR 1.4 Chijindu Ujah 5 Mar 94 GBR 2 FBKG

8 9.97 AUR 0.2 Dwain Chambers 5 Apr 78 GBR 3 WC

9 9.98 0.4 Jason Gardener 17 Sep 75 GBR 3

10 9.99 1.8 Ronald Pognon 16 Nov 82 FRA 1r2

10 9.99 NR 1.0 Jaysuma Saidy Ndure

Furthermore,I do not see any Carribbean domination over Africans there. Why ?

People in West Africa don't care about T&F, that's why Nigeria its turning to its diaspora .

I'm just going to point out something : the 60m and 100m dash NCAA record aren't held by AA or Carib sprinters as far as I know, despite the fact that those two aforemntioned groups make the large majority of sprinters.

Wigins, I have explained it before I will Explain it again. Most Black runners have a genetically low Vo2. East central Africa being the exception the other way, Genetically higher Vo2. I have had several higher end MDs tell the same thing that do Vo2 testing. Statistics over time also proves this correct. Look at the number of African Americans involved in high school, college even local marathons. All are very low. Look at the record books also. Past the mile a low Vo2 is difficult to overcome. Very scientific. No debate.

News Flash wrote:

Wigins, I have explained it before I will Explain it again. Most Black runners have a genetically low Vo2.

Got a citation for that? If not you're just talking out your rear end.

VO2 max is not directly linked to endurance oherwise Greg Lemond could have run a 2:05 marathon. Rosa Mota's was 67. It can be increased with training.

When you take a spirometry test, the form used has a notation (box) to check if you are black/African American. I asked my doctor why is this necessary and why not other races. Doctor says its on all forms because of the difference in build between blacks and other races. The correction factor/notation is because of the smaller narrower torso per body height that blacks generally have. This also means longer limbs per body height.

Was your doctor's name Mengele?

adsfasfdsf wrote:

News Flash wrote:

Wigins, I have explained it before I will Explain it again. Most Black runners have a genetically low Vo2.

Got a citation for that? If not you're just talking out your rear end.

Yep I do and if you guys haven't figured it out yet you are not paying attention. Yes you can improve it significantly but some of us start better than others. Lance Armstrong was a freak of nature and is the best example of what is going on with Vo2. We have tons of data on him. See below:

1. Lungs - 2 times the capacity of the average person

2. Muscle - Accumulates less lactic acid and is more efficient at

removing it.

3. Heart - Is about 1/3 larger with a resting heart rate of 32 beats per

minute, and peaks around 200 beats per minute.

4. Body Fat - 4-5 percent before the Tour starts, while an average

person has 15-20 percent.

At his peak he had a Vo2 of 83 to 85 ml of Oxygen per kg of body weight per minute. Must good runners train up to the 60 range or above. Average Joe is 40. Ethnic east Africans start in the 65 range and train to the 80-85ml/kg/min. The East Africans are born with all of the above boxes checked. Meb is another great example. At his age he is still in the low 80s. Guys learn to use Google and read some before you make a fool of yourself.

jamesqqq wrote:

West African descent??? What about the West Africans themselves?

Bad Wigins is right Racingthe, it is not West Africans who have dominated the sprints.

It is mixed-race men of West African AND Northern European blood ie. AfroCaribbeans, AfroAmericans, who (currently, for whatever reason) dominate sprinting.

Has it ever occurred to you that mixed-race of West African and Northern European might have a genetic advantage over West Africans? Just a thought...

Sociologist.... wrote:

Usually rich white kids do XC and dsitance, and poor black kids do the sprints.

What about poor white kids and rich black kids? Where do you place them??