What's your basis for calling a 4:16 HS PR a bust. A 4:39 in 8th grade is obviously impressive, but does it really necessarily forecast faster than 4:16 in HS? 4:
I ran a 4:39 1600 in 8th grade at almost age 15 (June Bday). A school record that stood for 20+ years. This was my 1st season of competitive running off of a football/wrestling background so I was not at all over-trained. Our coaches had no idea what they were doing and of course, neither did I.
Much better coaching in HS but never ran more than 50 mpw; more like 30-40 in 10th and 11th grade. Ran 4:18 my soph year in relay; 4:17 junior year; 4:16 senior year at state meet at age 19 (almost). A bit of a bust, especially for my age and early promise.
Ran at a decent D1 college in a very mediocre conference. 3:50/4:07 (DMR 1600), 1:55, 14:32. Was 5-7th man in CC. Never faster than 25:00 for 8k.
That's my story FWIW.
What's your basis for calling a 4:16 HS PR a bust. A 4:39 in 8th grade is obviously impressive, but does it really necessarily forecast faster than 4:16 in HS? 4:
I said a "bit" of a bust, not a bust. A 2 second improvement from 10th to 12th grade was disappointing to say the least. This was back when 4:16 was actually fast (still is I guess but not like it was) so I still got recruited and ran in college, but to go from a 4:39 in 8th grade with zero training and structure and only improve to 4:16 w/plenty of training ... meh.
What's your basis for calling a 4:16 HS PR a bust. A 4:39 in 8th grade is obviously impressive, but does it really necessarily forecast faster than 4:16 in HS? 4:
I said a "bit" of a bust, not a bust. A 2 second improvement from 10th to 12th grade was disappointing to say the least. This was back when 4:16 was actually fast (still is I guess but not like it was) so I still got recruited and ran in college, but to go from a 4:39 in 8th grade with zero training and structure and only improve to 4:16 w/plenty of training ... meh.
What's your basis for calling a 4:16 HS PR a bust. A 4:39 in 8th grade is obviously impressive, but does it really necessarily forecast faster than 4:16 in HS? 4:
I said a "bit" of a bust, not a bust. A 2 second improvement from 10th to 12th grade was disappointing to say the least. This was back when 4:16 was actually fast (still is I guess but not like it was) so I still got recruited and ran in college, but to go from a 4:39 in 8th grade with zero training and structure and only improve to 4:16 w/plenty of training ... meh.
Well, I'm pretty old, so I know how fast 4:16 "used to be." And I'm sure that very, very few kids, now or then, were accomplishing that without plenty of training, as well.
Some things (just facts, but some of you will see some of them as positive and some as negative).
1) If the kid was 13 in the spring of his 7th grade year, then he's among the older in his grade meaning that there are current freshmen who are about his same age. Make a HUGE difference here.
This isn't true. Most 7th graders turn 13 during the school year. Turning 13 in the spring is definitely not old.
Hmm, my older daughter just turned 14 and is just starting 10th grade, and my younger daughter is 12 and in 8th grade, so 13 in 7th grade seems old to me.
On top of that, kids mature differently. I remember the fastest kid in my 6th grade was bigger and stronger than everybody else. We went to different jr highs, but when I ran into him again in hs, he’d barely grown another inch and was near the shortest and no wear near the fastest any longer. Thus, it’s better to wait till these kids are in 10th or 11th grade before boasting about them and putting unrealistic expectations on them.
as someone who ran junior olympics and was all-american for my age group (youth 13-14),
a lot of these prodigies peak in high school, or freshman year of college if they decide to run collegiately.
i saw myself and many others who were the best at X age burn out.
none of these people end up near elite levels on the world stage (which is really what matters), and usually all of these fast times is just to peak in high school and maximize college admissions for stanford / ivy league.
then the prodigy runs decent freshman year, but realizes college is way more fun when you aren't dieting and training like a madman, while everyone else has a fun party lifestyle. then they drop out of running or revert back to the mean (not a stand-out prodigy anymore) and don't become a professional runner.
this has happened so many times ad nausea. I've seen it happen with countless high school stars who joined Stanford too, and even prodigies from Junior Olympics who joined them too.
it's actually a bad thing to be running too fast in middle school / under 16 in my opinion.
as someone who ran junior olympics and was all-american for my age group (youth 13-14),
a lot of these prodigies peak in high school, or freshman year of college if they decide to run collegiately.
i saw myself and many others who were the best at X age burn out.
none of these people end up near elite levels on the world stage (which is really what matters), and usually all of these fast times is just to peak in high school and maximize college admissions for stanford / ivy league.
then the prodigy runs decent freshman year, but realizes college is way more fun when you aren't dieting and training like a madman, while everyone else has a fun party lifestyle. then they drop out of running or revert back to the mean (not a stand-out prodigy anymore) and don't become a professional runner.
this has happened so many times ad nausea. I've seen it happen with countless high school stars who joined Stanford too, and even prodigies from Junior Olympics who joined them too.
it's actually a bad thing to be running too fast in middle school / under 16 in my opinion.
As someone who was also a decent youth runner, the chances of being a worldwide elite are near zero. The chances of even being a college or even *high school* star are not that great.
Get while the getting is good. My memories are no less good because I failed to be an NCAA star. Are yours?
as someone who ran junior olympics and was all-american for my age group (youth 13-14),
a lot of these prodigies peak in high school, or freshman year of college if they decide to run collegiately.
i saw myself and many others who were the best at X age burn out.
none of these people end up near elite levels on the world stage (which is really what matters), and usually all of these fast times is just to peak in high school and maximize college admissions for stanford / ivy league.
then the prodigy runs decent freshman year, but realizes college is way more fun when you aren't dieting and training like a madman, while everyone else has a fun party lifestyle. then they drop out of running or revert back to the mean (not a stand-out prodigy anymore) and don't become a professional runner.
this has happened so many times ad nausea. I've seen it happen with countless high school stars who joined Stanford too, and even prodigies from Junior Olympics who joined them too.
it's actually a bad thing to be running too fast in middle school / under 16 in my opinion.
As someone who was also a decent youth runner, the chances of being a worldwide elite are near zero. The chances of even being a college or even *high school* star are not that great.
Get while the getting is good. My memories are no less good because I failed to be an NCAA star. Are yours?
these youth coaches and parents just optimize for the short-term. they want the absolute fastest times when the kid isn't even done developing yet. no childhood, just train train train.
i would have rather enjoyed my youth while training for longevity, and continue developing in college, and hopefully peak in my 20s as a pro athlete. with progressive improvements. that's the ideal scenario.
the kids running these fast times have the mentality in reverse. peak early and slowly get worse relative to everyone else, as they get older. it's very damaging psychologically to not see the same exponential growth.
of course personally i wouldn't take back things, but there is a right way to train and a less right way to train.
As someone who was also a decent youth runner, the chances of being a worldwide elite are near zero. The chances of even being a college or even *high school* star are not that great.
Get while the getting is good. My memories are no less good because I failed to be an NCAA star. Are yours?
these youth coaches and parents just optimize for the short-term. they want the absolute fastest times when the kid isn't even done developing yet. no childhood, just train train train.
i would have rather enjoyed my youth while training for longevity, and continue developing in college, and hopefully peak in my 20s as a pro athlete. with progressive improvements. that's the ideal scenario.
the kids running these fast times have the mentality in reverse. peak early and slowly get worse relative to everyone else, as they get older. it's very damaging psychologically to not see the same exponential growth.
of course personally i wouldn't take back things, but there is a right way to train and a less right way to train.
Holding a grudge on your parents and coach is not healthy. You could bear some of the blame for burning out. There are great age group stars like Athing Mu, Cooper Teare, Cory McGee, Katelyn Tuohy, Mary Slaney, Jakob Ingribrigtsen, Niels Lagos.. list goes on and on and on.
these youth coaches and parents just optimize for the short-term. they want the absolute fastest times when the kid isn't even done developing yet. no childhood, just train train train.
i would have rather enjoyed my youth while training for longevity, and continue developing in college, and hopefully peak in my 20s as a pro athlete. with progressive improvements. that's the ideal scenario.
the kids running these fast times have the mentality in reverse. peak early and slowly get worse relative to everyone else, as they get older. it's very damaging psychologically to not see the same exponential growth.
of course personally i wouldn't take back things, but there is a right way to train and a less right way to train.
Holding a grudge on your parents and coach is not healthy. You could bear some of the blame for burning out. There are great age group stars like Athing Mu, Cooper Teare, Cory McGee, Katelyn Tuohy, Mary Slaney, Jakob Ingribrigtsen, Niels Lagos.. list goes on and on and on.
what about:
- Blake Haney
- Darren Fahy
- Ryan Silva
- Blair Hurlock
- Elias Gedyon
- Lukas Verzbicas
- German Fernandez
All peaked in high school/early college.
Grant Fisher is an anomaly from the group of youth stars (he was already the best in high school - Footlocker XC)
I know this thread is mostly about 8th grade boys, but Kaitlyn Estep from NC has run an 18:11 this year in XC. 4th fastest 8th grader in NC so far regardless of gender, and the fastest time for an 8th grader girl in the nation so far (thought just barely, only a tenth of a second ahead of Paige Ballinger from Delaware).