coach x wrote:
no doubt the authorities avoided a major scandal by only busting a minimum number for peds
Justin Gatlin? LaShawn Merritt? Tyson Gay?
coach x wrote:
no doubt the authorities avoided a major scandal by only busting a minimum number for peds
Justin Gatlin? LaShawn Merritt? Tyson Gay?
I never bring this up in discussions about "lax controls". I bring it up in discussions like "all sub-2:06 are only possible with PEDs".PEDs are a "global" phenomenon, which cannot explain regional dominance.I can accept a hypothesis that "lax controls" can explain regional dominance. But I don't see a strong case being made for lax controls, or reasons why controls are only lax in Kenya, among certain select Rift Valley tribes, and other East African countries, like Ethiopia and Eritrea. We also know historically that westerners are more than capable of avoiding controls, and would have better means to do so.Lots of talk about lack of blood tests, but urine tests are widely used, and capable of detecting EPO, and out of competition tests for EPO have been used by the IAAF since 2002.Hajo Seppelt seems to have left the country too soon, producing a report that was more hype than substance. He reported what so many want to believe, but he only found one doctor and one pharmacist telling him what he wanted to hear, under the promise of getting paid.I just need to see more substance and data to be able to draw some of the conclusions that others seem to have no problem with.And regarding PED's not working on top East Africans, all I say is that we don't really have a reliable way to quantify what such an effect could be, since the effect of EPO on elite performances was never measured in a controlled way. There are many reasons to think that the effect would diminish, if not disappear, with higher talent.
Sciatica Road wrote:
This is a common straw man argument that the likes of Canova, native son, rekrunner, and now apologist you seem to always bring to the table when the issue of Kenya's lax doping control is brought up for discussion. The point being made has never been stated as "Kenyans cheat and Americans don't". Rather, it is that their doping control is much much more lax than that of the US, and it is ludicrous and inflammatory to claim that doesn't really matter because PED's are don't work on the top east african talent.
Kisorio denies implicating anyone else, he said he was misquoted. He said he admitted doping positive result so that athletic kenya can go after the doctor who lied to him. http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/entertainment/m/?articleID=2000132334&story_title=Doctor%E2%80%99s%20injection%20led%20to%20my%20ban%20-%20Kisorio/thenairobian/
Kisorio was busted by athletic Kenya, this notion that doping testing is lax in kenya does not add up.
Kenya was the most tested nation in 2012. Kenya 14.7% Russian 14,2% USA 9.4% Jamaica 7.2% Ukraine 4.0% Belarus 3.5 % Turkey 3.1% Germany 3.0% , Morocco 2.6% some are going say, this are not blood test, well the number of blood testing worldwide is low, others are going to say, the testing pool did not represent the number of athletes coming from kenya, the testing sample will tell you if athletes are doping or not. Random sampling will give you a hint if you are dealing with big numbers. This is only iaaf or wada testing not including the local testing, well kenyan local races test for doping, you add that to this kenya is still the most tested nation in the world
If they can implement this agency correctly this will change the play of the game in Kenya. At the moment the most likely scenario of doping in kenya (as there is little testing on relative nobodies and no testing on the stars) is as follows:
1.Travel to US or Europe after spending over a week, probably up to three weeks to not risk any residues, cleaning out the system and take out a bag of blood and send to storage. 3-4 months out from race
2.Return to Kenya and resume with cocktail usage during training where the real benefits of doping are gained. EPO doesn't need to be micro dosed since there is no testing (note:there are multiple cases of athletes dying during sleep or after training sessions in the rift valley, same occurrences have been seen with cyclists dying from too much dosage of EPO). Testosterone is taken to boost recovery and see maximum adaptations to the physiology as are steroids and HGH.
3. two to three weeks out from race stop using all banned substances.
4. one week from race travel to race location for acclimatization period.
5. one to two days out from race perform blood transfusion.
6. run outstanding times such as sub 2:04/05 for men and sub 2:19/20 for women.
because blood transfusions are impossible to detect the athlete will never be tested positive at a race. My opinion is there is great testing in place at races, but it's honestly a waste of time and money because they'll never find anything. blood transfusions can be suspected in cycling tours (not classics) because there should be a decrease in red blood cell count (RBC) as the tour progresses. in one day events such as every single distance competed in the sport of athletics, you can never suspect an increase in RBC because you have no base line value for any of the athletes. the biggest boosts come from the cocktailing in the training leading up to the race. a blood transfusion is just a cherry on top, no doubt it enhances performance but not to the degree of the cocktail training.
in kenya you have managers and coaches who are never visited in the camps. some have private houses and you'd be hard pressed to see any officials searching there. many of the coaches and managers hail from countries with long histories of sport doping, heck the italians basically invented it.
AK (Kiplagat) wants to dodge the matter by blaming foreign coaches and managers. Sure the problem stems from these people, but the real problem is the enabling from AK (a mafioso federation). The real problem is there is no transparency because there is no Anti-doping agency... not a branch of AK but its own independent ministry. Kenya needs a strict anti-doping program with large scale weekly random testing. They ought to call the Irish agency for help in creating it as they are the gold-standard of anti-doping agencies. with the money they muscle out of the coaches, managers, and the athletes they should be able to afford an investment in to cleaning their countries great name.
it's very clear you don't know anything about Kenya.
Your hypothetical scenario is something good for a movie, but very far from the reality.
Again, you suppose the organization of private athletic managements is the same of the biggest cycling Teams in the past, and I already explained the budget of a cycling Team is 10 times bigger than the budget of the Whole AK.
The biggest managements produce incomes for about 300,000 USD, having more than 10 persons working in different roles, with normal salary.
If you consider that a manager can earn, deducting the expenses, about 10% on the income of his athletes, you understand that, for earning 100,000 USD, needs to win with his athletes 1 million dollars. How many managers have athletes so strong ?
One thing is to suppose some Kenyan can buy for himself some PED of very low quality using his money, other thing to look at blood transfusion, possible only with good medical organization, of course very expensive (see how much Fuentes received from cyclists some year ago).
You can better use your imagination writing some story for movies than stupidities about african athletes.
I wouldn't describe it as a movie scene
jos hermens who manages the ethiopians
gebreselassie and bekele has contacts with these spanish doping doctors like fuentes
He was caught red handed sending athletes to these doping doctors
So it's not really science fiction
And then you have the doctors based in kenya who were formerly involved in cycling
Instead of spending hours on message boards justifying yourself , you should be checking what "your" athletes are doing while your head is stuck in the keyboard. Laughable
I don't have to justify myself of anything. I only am tired to read of people not knowing anything of Kenya speaking using stereotypes, with their mind warped by wrong mediatic propaganda.
About the italian doctor involved in cycling staying in Kenya, I'm very curious to know who they are, since I never saw some Italian doctor in Kenya in 15 years (unless you mean dr. Rosa, who is manager, coach, organizer but not doctors in the last 40 years...).
I don't have any particular and personal interest at the moment in Kenya, since in 2014 I was in China the most part of time, and "my" kenyan athletes are only few (the historical), as Thomas Longosiwa, Caleb Ndiku, Abel Kirui, Jonathan Maiyo and Florence Kiplagat.
About these athletes I'm totally confident, and I don't need to check what they do, out of their training.
But I can't accept a "widespread" idea that Kenyan are doped, because this is not true. I know the Kenyan reality better than people posting in letsrun, and my position is to fight ALWAYS against evrything I know is unfair and used as a pretext.
Spain.... wrote:
jos hermens who manages the ethiopians
gebreselassie and bekele has contacts with these spanish doping doctors like fuentes
Do you know who Meb's agent was when he got his Olympic medal?
anom wrote:
If they can implement this agency correctly this will change the play of the game in Kenya. At the moment the most likely scenario of doping in kenya (as there is little testing on relative nobodies and no testing on the stars) is as follows:
That's wrong so your whole premise is false.
The sad news is you have never sat foot in kenya, you are just speculating. You all premise is based on your other thoughts on doping and if you stand in a court of law the judge will kick you out. Kisorio is an elite runner,he was busted in kenya, the idea that elite don't get tested is bull crap. Why in the world would these doctors you are talking about not try their magic drugs in other African countries, why kenya? If these drugs work as you are purporting, other governments would have welcome it, heck these doctors would be living like royalty in the middle east where they are desperate to win, why toil day in and day out in the bushes of iten?
You act like you know what these athletes are doing right now, you must be like God or something.
Renato, thanks for keeping up the discussion while I was away from the computer for the weekend. This is the kind of informative dialogue that makes the fans smarter, and the sport better.
I have since read more about the journalists, and there is a lot by writers I trust that backs up your opinion that they were more interested in "Scoop" than substance. But, that does not mean that there is not an issue of anti-doping in Kenya.
HGB drops during training loads as plasma expansion occurs. Plasma expansion is a regular adaptation to the stresses of exercise, which improves performance. So, a decrease in HGB usually occurs with an increase in performance. But, because of the way it is measured, that does not mean that raising HGB would decrease performance. So blood boosting still works.
My goal is for everyone to look at every Kenyan performance with skepticism. That doesn't mean I think every Kenyan is doped. The evidence shows that things are not as they seem (the idea that all kenyans are cleans...), but that the infrastructure and culture are all susceptible to doping. This is especially relevent with the huge drops in marathon times. It just doesn't match for me. (I also want every to view every[i/] athlete with skepticism: US, German, Bolivian, Malayan...[and in that view, Jeff W, I am extremely suspicious of Meb, for reasons including that link, but that's another thread {one I actually started after Boston but it got deleted...}]))
Lastly, Renato, please post the blood profiles you have or are collecting. It would be fascinating to see. Transparency is good for everyone.
Rita Jeptoo.
Like I've been saying, don't believe the hype.
Clerk wrote:
Rita Jeptoo.
http://www.runblogrun.com/2014/10/rita-jeptoo-tests-positive-an-exclusive-to-runblogrun-by-larry-eder.htmlLike I've been saying, don't believe the hype.
When you get multiple studs from multiple coaching and management groups in Kenya going by the wayside for hard drugs, then ok. But we're not there yet.
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Clerk wrote:Rita Jeptoo.
http://www.runblogrun.com/2014/10/rita-jeptoo-tests-positive-an-exclusive-to-runblogrun-by-larry-eder.htmlLike I've been saying, don't believe the hype.
When you get multiple studs from multiple coaching and management groups in Kenya going by the wayside for hard drugs, then ok. But we're not there yet.
You're driving a hard line. I'm not sure what the benefit is of ignoring that there is a problem. What good does it do the sport to say "Its only one athlete, so lets ignore it" or "Its only 19 athletes, so lets ignore it." or "It's only on group, so lets ignore it", or "It's only one drug that athletes are using, so lets ignore it,"
I'm putting words in your mouth, but that is how I understand your point of view.
What good does inaction do for you?
Where did I write anything about ignoring or inaction? I am saying I wouldn't paint an entire nation or region of the world with a large brush based on a single or small number of cases. A single or very low number of rotten apples doesn't make me think that the whole barrel is rotten.
I'd also wait a minute to see what was found in her urine. Something that has a history of showing up in contaminated supplements is one thing (and I am a supporter of the strict liability policy), while EPO is a whole different matter.
Where do you get ignorance/inaction from my comments? The process is working, is it not? Kenya was no safe haven.