True, how could I forget my letsrun etiquette?
True, how could I forget my letsrun etiquette?
Armstrong Syndrome wrote:
And no, I would not think that someone who can be bought by a country that is not his nation of origin is any more likely to dope than any other world-class runner -- that is a senseless, shallow version of a process that somewhat resembles thinking but doesn't quite pass muster. The African countries cheat, those Arab scum are perhaps worse but at some point why split those whiskers?
Then you're completely ignorant about the workings of Bahrain and Qatar in the early 2000s, and about the different training schools in Morocco as well.
Oh? wrote:
Obviously, you are new to letsrun. Let me help:
This is a very easy place to satirize, yet you do it incompetently.
Americans are regarded with no less suspicion than foreigners. Look at the threads about Rupp, Lagat and others. And when they are known cheats like Gatlin they are given no quarter.
Americans would cheat about their ages if it were as easy to do as it is for Africans and they would be rightly called on it if they did.
You have to be too stupid to not have a live-in caregiver. Isn't it time for a nappy-poo?
Wikipedia That wrote:
Never had more than 3 guys broken 3:30 in the same race
Yesterday SEVEN of them did it
In history, only eight men have run 3:28.81 or better. FOUR of them are running right now. Only 3 were running in El Guerrouj's time.
In 1999, 302 men broke 3:38. In 2013, 315 did it.
The times weren't faster during the so-called "EPO era," El Guerrouj is just that much better and if he were in his prime today he'd still be that much better.
Maybe a little something called "more opportunities"
If you haven't noticed, Men's 1500m isn't the only thing getting faster now a days, time wise, event wise, and age group wise
What a waste wrote:
Then you're completely ignorant about the workings of Bahrain and Qatar in the early 2000s, and about the different training schools in Morocco as well.
Ah, yes, okay, I'll pretend that I don't know what I do in fact know, and put Moroccan elites into two different categories:
--> Those who remain Moroccan and therefore never cheat (except for those like Moumri and Boulami, who were caught cheating)
--> Those who become citizens of wealthy Arab countries and suddenly are exposed to the concept of doping.
If you want to argue that the Arabs were simply more aggressive about it, go right ahead. It doesn't change what non-ignoramuses know about the Moroccans, not to mention th just-as-dirty Algerians like Saidi-Sief and (not caught but obviously juiced) Morceli.
The first response got it.
Drug testers are better but drug users usually remain ahead of testers.
The 1988 testers got Ben Johnson.
The 2000 and 2004 testers were better than the 1988 testers but they did not catch Marion Jones and Justin Gatlin.
Armstrong Syndrome wrote:
Oh? wrote:Obviously, you are new to letsrun. Let me help:
This is a very easy place to satirize, yet you do it incompetently.
Americans are regarded with no less suspicion than foreigners. Look at the threads about Rupp, Lagat and others. And when they are known cheats like Gatlin they are given no quarter.
Americans would cheat about their ages if it were as easy to do as it is for Africans and they would be rightly called on it if they did.
You have to be too stupid to not have a live-in caregiver. Isn't it time for a nappy-poo?
Nonsense, the letsrun opinion on Rupp is clearly split. And I did mention Lagat as being considered a drug cheat on here when he was competing for Kenya (and that the opinion is less clear that he is currently a drug cheat). True about Gatlin, though this is letsrun, where we only truly care about distance runners, so what does a sprinter have to do with anything?
Star wrote:
The first response got it.
Drug testers are better but drug users usually remain ahead of testers.
The 1988 testers got Ben Johnson.
The 2000 and 2004 testers were better than the 1988 testers but they did not catch Marion Jones and Justin Gatlin.
Um, I thought they DID catch Justin Gatlin . . . twice.
Oh? wrote:
Nonsense, the letsrun opinion on Rupp is clearly split. And I did mention Lagat as being considered a drug cheat on here when he was competing for Kenya (and that the opinion is less clear that he is currently a drug cheat). True about Gatlin, though this is letsrun, where we only truly care about distance runners, so what does a sprinter have to do with anything?
Fine. Without another asinine poll from the jokers that be, there's no way to tell just how strongly the place as a whole feels about a given athlete or country when it comes to doping. But I think it's safe to say that the board loves to scream about cheating regardless of nationality and in most cases people are probably right in spite of themselves and their horrific lack of insight and human worth, because it's a safe bet that any given record-holder is dirty.
Critical Thinking wrote:
Star wrote:The first response got it.
Drug testers are better but drug users usually remain ahead of testers.
The 1988 testers got Ben Johnson.
The 2000 and 2004 testers were better than the 1988 testers but they did not catch Marion Jones and Justin Gatlin.
Um, I thought they DID catch Justin Gatlin . . . twice.
They did NOT catch Gatlin in 2004.
He passed all of the tests that year and remains the 2004 Olympic Champion.
He was caught in 2006.
Skeptic/Sceptic wrote:
What's interesting to me is that while 1500 times have been lights out, 5000 times have not been.
Perhaps the 'new supplement' is more geared towards the fast twitch crowd - hence the fast 800/1500 times that have been getting thrown down...
I'm not generally a pessimist - but if there is something out there making the rounds, it sure seems like it's sweet spot is middle distance speed...
clearly the 5000m/10000m are slower than before. Some of the
talent is on the roads, but I don't see any potential sub 12:50/26:40 guy doing the marathon today. It is more like the
13:00/27:00 guys who are winning the big city marathons these days.
Peer Mediator wrote:
Moreover, I don't think I've ever seen Kiplagat look more relaxed and less tired after that Monaco run. All seems a bit fishy to me.
So not only do drugs make you faster, they also help you look good and relaxed?
(in that case, at least Radcliffe's case is closed, she never looked too relaxed to be doped)
yyy wrote:but I don't see any potential sub 12:50/26:40 guy doing the marathon today. It is more like the
13:00/27:00 guys who are winning the big city marathons these days.
rubbish
ever heard of sambu ???
he's a road-runner & was only asked to pace for rupp, but continued on to finish for 26'50+
if someone had actually been pacing him, he wouda been looking at 26'40 - 26'45 in ideal race
ventolin^3 wrote:
yyy wrote:but I don't see any potential sub 12:50/26:40 guy doing the marathon today. It is more like the13:00/27:00 guys who are winning the big city marathons these days.
rubbish
ever heard of sambu ???
he's a road-runner & was only asked to pace for rupp, but continued on to finish for 26'50+
if someone had actually been pacing him, he wouda been looking at 26'40 - 26'45 in ideal race
I've heard of Moses Mosop. He ran the 10000 seriously before going to the marathon and was a 26:49 guy.
what is his marathon PB?
right, but there are 5 yrs between his 2:05.03 and 26:49.
yyy wrote:what is his marathon PB?
idiot
what is sambu's 10k road pb ?
what is the 10k road wr ???
It does have to be said that the only recent male American distance runner to be busted for drugs was a Moroccan-American who kept returning home to train.
I don’t understand why, when we speak about the level of performances in middle distances, somebody continues to think every difference from the past is due to different doping situations.
In the period 1990 – 2004, the most important events in athletics (apart WCh and OG) were the meetings of Golden League (GL). There were 7 meetings, and the athletes could run at least 4 of them for winning the final jackpot. There were athletes as Morceli and El Guerrouj in 1500m, Gebre, Komen and Bekele in 5000 / 10000m, Kiptanui (before) and Shaheen (later) for steeple, and every time the organizers were interested to some attempt of WR, because these athletes could really have chances to run the fastest time ever in the World.
The appearance for these athletes was very high (for example, several times Shaheen had between 40000 and 60000 USD for starting), plus bonus in case of WR, and the cost of pacers was, at the same time, very high, because for bettering a WR we needed some of the best athletes in the world able to pace.
I remember, for example, a Kenyan called Malakwen, able running 1200m under 2’45”, pacing several times Morceli in his WR attempts.
Behind these top athletes, many other athletes of high level (but not big champions) were able to use the number one of the world as rabbit for themselves. All the best times in 1500m are in races won by El G or Morceli, such as before them in races won by Aouita, Cram or Coe. All the best times in 5000m are in races won by Kenenisa, Haile or Komen. All the best times in 10000m are in races won by Kenenisa and Haile again, and when Tergat bettered the WR he had Paul Koech running in front of him till 8800m, still able to finish in 26’38”.
Because champions of this level don’t born frequently, we had a period, when they became older, during which it was not possible to have any athlete able to attack the current WR, and consequently organizers didn’t spend good money for rabbiting good times only.
Look at the all time performers in 10000m. The first 30 performers achieved their performances in 3 meetings only : Bruxelles, Hengelo and Eugene (this case after 2011 only), with one ecception only (Gebremeskel in Sollentuna last year, during a competition for obtaining the limit for WCh). For example, in 2010 there were no races of 10000m in any European meeting, and at the end of the season the only good race was in Stanford (when Solinski ran under 27’), with the only ecception of one “solo” run by Joseph Menjo in Finland.
Now, finally, we have again some athlete with the talent, but also the courage, to try a WR. This is Asbel Kiprop, and, also if he failed, was the reason because other 6 athletes were able to go under 3’30”.
Do you think the 800m runners of the period 1980 – 1988 could run so fast, without Johnny Gray and Barbosa, always in front for running fast ? And do you think for the athletes of today running so fast, without Rudisha in front (look at Olympic and Monaco 3 days ago) ? But do you know how many athletes, in the World, till now, were able running under 1’43” (still considered the international excellence) ? 32, and 123 under 1’44”, and 287 under 1’45”.
Do you think the runners of the period 1985-2004 could run so fast without Morceli and El Guerrouj ? But do you know there are, updated at today, already 29 athletes under 3’30” and 101 under 3’32” ?
Really, do you think Silas Kiplagat was weaker than Daniel Kipchirchir Komen (3’29”02), or in the same level of William Chirchir (3’29”29), Laban Rotich (3’29”91) and Sydney Maree (3’29”77) ?
In 2003, in our training group we had a normal athlete, starting in the same village of Wilfred Bungei, and he started as rabbit for 1500m. In one of those meetings (Milan, in June), after pacing he finished the race, running 3’34”. Next year ran 3’30”04, and never was a champion. His name is Timothy Kiptanui.
So, people has to stop thinking everything is connected with doping. Put in your weak minds that 3’30”is nothing special, when you have talent, motivation and good training.
Looking at 5000m, already 85 athletes were able running under 13’, in 10000m 50 athletes broke the barrier of 27’. Many of these athletes were (and still are) with me in training, and I see them as NORMAL athletes, without any medical support, without particular facilities, only with their talent (which is not TOP talent) and their motivation. A coach who could train, on daily basis, athletes as Stephen Cherono (Shaheen), or Nicholas Kemboi before his injuries, well knows the difference between an extra-class champion and a good top athlete, and all the athletes we speak about are ONLY top athletes, still far from the extra-class champions.
Silas can become an extra-class, such as Asbel, such as Ronald Kwemoi. He in 2009 ran 28:00 in 10 km on road, training with Sammy Kitwara. During the winter 2009-2010, Moses Kiptanui saw his relaxation running, and prepared him for 1500m. He ran 3’39” on dirth track, and I contacted him, bringing to the management of Gianni Demadonna. I started to follow him frequently in training, combinig the plan of Moses with my plan. He surprised everybody running 3’34” during National Championships, immediately behind Asbel Kiprop. For that reason, the organizer of Monaco accepted him in the race, and at his first competition on track out of Kenya he won in 3’29”27.
The strange fact is that, till Monaco this year, that performance remained his PB.
Silas is a very clever person, but a little bit naïf. During winter, he started to do some confusion between the plan of Moses Kiptanui, my plan and something else he decided few moments before every training. For that reason, never was able to have the right consistency, and for that reason I spoke very clearly with him last October, telling him I didn’t want to give him any training plan again, if he continued to do confusion.
After his bad winter, he asked me some advice, and I told him clearly what he had to do, without giving him any detailed plan. Substancially, to increase the volume of his speed endurance, reducing the max speed of every test, putting again in his training plan fast continuous run for 8-10 km, may be in progression, but really fast (for example, 8 km starting at 3’05” per km till 2’45” at the end), and to maintain a higher volume of aerobic training, because he is an “aerobic animal”, not a “lactic animal”, and never could be number one in the world if his 28’ in 10 km becomes 31’, because never can be athlete for 1’42” in 800m.
He started to follow these advices, arranging his training plan by himself, but following the above principles.
All the speculations about doping (not only for him, but for the most part of runners) are only bullshits.
Times come with strong pacing and perfect conditions, otherwise, if is doping to decide, why they don’t run fast also in small meetings and in more occasions ? Before speaking is good to know something more about athletics.