Doing lots of super slow recovery runs

Freddie, I believe that you're wise to focus on the recovery run as an important part of your training. With that said, running 60 minutes at 10 minute mile pace may actually be doing you more harm than good. Let me explain by first telling you where I'm coming from.

I'm currently a 14 flat 5k runner, and I have been fortunate to run under two different D1 programs as well as train in Kenya for some time. I run my easy days between 8 and 7 minute mile pace, usually progressing down to a faster pace as my legs warm up. I learned this from my first coach and in Kenya, where even Asbel Kiprop will sometimes run 5 miles in over 40 minutes. So for me personally, I'll really focus on keeping the first two miles of my run slow, like high sevens and then quickly bring it down according to feel, which usually ends up with me running high to mid 6 mins per mile. An average of the paces would probably put me just over seven flat typically.

The key thing to remember about your recovery days is that you need to listen to your body but not compromise your running form. Kenyans will shuffle jog for the first 10 minutes of run sometimes but they are still very much expressing the ideal running form. For you, given your current level of fitness, I would suggest starting your recovery runs at 9-10 min pace for only the first five minutes of running. From there you should quickly enter into a more 8:30 to 8 min pace for the majority of your run. The last mile you can turn up, it's actually good for your body, just make sure that your form is not breaking down.

Hope this helps, good luck with your 5k!

[quote]5K training expert wrote:

And DO NOT listen to 5k training expert. He couldn't be more wrong about how to train for a 5k.

Qwerty union wrote:

There is no such thing as a workout that facilitates recovery, only one that inflicts less stress.

Absolutely untrue.

My math says:

Your 5k pace: 4:31 / mile

Your average easy day pace: 7-8/ mile (55-77% slower)

His 5k pace: 6:27 / mile

His easy day pace if the same % slower as yours: 10:00-11:24.

Yet you recommend he run most of it 8-8:30?

Doesn't seem to add up.

What fact checker said.

If you figure 20 minute 5k shape, which is 6:24/1600 or about 6:26/mi, then your vVO2 max would be faster, say 5:56/mile, which is from the McMillan Calculator.

Some people say the slowest you can go and stimulate your aerobic system is 55% of vVO2 max. That would be about 10:47 per mile. Pretty close to OP's 11 minute miles.

Hey, if a sub 2:07 Japanese runner did boatloads of 8 minute miles on easy days, a 20 minute 5k guy can run 11 minute miles on easy days.

Training of Tayayuki Inubushi 2:06:57 guy:

http://bobhodge.us/running-logs/takayuki-inubushi/

pinning down a detail wrote:

Absolutely untrue.

You can't prove it.

Joffrey wrote:

well.,. wrote:

I run the 10k in 40 min

You are not qualified to provide advice here

He is about as "fast" as the guy starting the thread, idiot.

Your fprgetting that college runner is at a much higher fitness level amd his body can take faster paces easier .

Here's my lifelong maxim: Unless it's a race, run at an effort that FEELS LIKE 90% EVERY DAY (well, on most days, at least, since you will need a day or two of true recovery per week). So, if you do intervals one day, don't red-line them. Run them at a fast but controlled effort (i.e., what feels like 90%). On the following day, because you are fatigued, your body will be NATURALLY LIMITED as to how fast you can run. In other words, if you were to push it and go all-out the day after your interval day, your body will max out about 0:30-1:00/mile slower on an 8M run than if you were going in to the same run feeling 100% rested. So, then, even though you're running slower the day after intervals, you're still "pushing" the pace at what FEELS to be 90% effort, even though in practice, you're running at a pace that is about 80% if you were 100% rested. This typically comes out to be about 1:30-2:00/mile slower, the low range (1:30/mile slower) being typical and the high range (2:00/mile slower) when you're more fatigued than usual (i.e., after a race).

If you're running so slow (11:00/mile) on your easy days, my hunch is that you're taking your quality days too hard (100%), and then you're wasting the other days in between (50%). So, hold back on the quality days so that you don't compromise your training (remember, training is cumulative stress) or risk getting injured, and, in turn, go a little harder on your easy days... In other words, go out at what FEELS like 90% effort every day.

fact checker wrote:

My math says:

Your 5k pace: 4:31 / mile

Your average easy day pace: 7-8/ mile (55-77% slower)

His 5k pace: 6:27 / mile

His easy day pace if the same % slower as yours: 10:00-11:24.

Yet you recommend he run most of it 8-8:30?

Doesn't seem to add up.

Your math is spot on, but there's an externality that falls through the calculations, and that's simulating proper running form. Running 11 min mile pace is so slow that it becomes difficult to run properly, changing your gait and often leading to injury or useless exercise. Also, you can't use these percentages as a rule of thumb. I run much slower on recovery days than many d1 runners, and Abel Kirui would run sometimes over 8 min pace on his easy days, and he could crap on my 5k pr. The common denominator is that the recovery day was slow enough to feel easy but fast enough to run with proper form. If you forsake your form, you might as well not have run that day.

I'm sorry el, but this philosophy is just wrong. Every great runner goes HARD on workout days and EASY on easy days. Nick Willis once ran with my team and commended us that we were one of the only running squads he could run his easy days with since we went very slow for a recovery session. Going 90% everyday is just stupid, you get injured or depleted, and if you can handle this kind of workload that probably means your not training at high level at all.

The purpose of "recovery" days is to recover - for someone running 6:00 pace in a 5k, recovery days at 9, 10, or even 11 minute pace should do that.

But there's another element which I would call "easy" or "maintenance" runs (as in, maintaining fitness). Those runs are taxing but you can rebound from them prior to another hard effort. Easy/maintenance could be in the neighborhood of 7 or 8 minutes for that runner. I find that as I'm getting in shape, the easy days replace recovery days, and eventually very slow recovery runs become very rare - almost like a replacement for a day off.

The one thing I would do is limit the time of those recovery runs. Running slowly for 30 minutes is a very good shakeout that helps keep you on track when it's built into a solid 7, 10, or 14 day training week. Running slowly for an hour or more doesn't help those runs achieve the purpose of recovery. I would dial your hard efforts back until you can feel comfortable running only one or two recovery days per week, with two or three "maintenance" days each week instead.

Yes/no. Whatever works.

[/quote]

Your math is spot on, but there's an externality that falls through the calculations, and that's simulating proper running form. Running 11 min mile pace is so slow that it becomes difficult to run properly, changing your gait and often leading to injury or useless exercise. Also, you can't use these percentages as a rule of thumb. I run much slower on recovery days than many d1 runners, and Abel Kirui would run sometimes over 8 min pace on his easy days, and he could crap on my 5k pr. The common denominator is that the recovery day was slow enough to feel easy but fast enough to run with proper form. If you forsake your form, you might as well not have run that day.[/quote]

^^^

Exactly this. Spot on. You need to go fast enough to maintain a good running form but slow enough that it's easy. Slogging around (especially if your stride rate goes way down because of it) does almost nothing for you.