Why do so many high school 1600ers stagnate at 4:40-4:30s?

ding ding ding wrote:

the only thing I would say wrote:

I think it is mostly talent.

You can talk all you want about training and miles but for these kids they just don't have the natural talent. You can train pretty much any mediocre high school school kid to run a 4:45. You train a kid with talent the same way and he runs 4:25.

But what causes you to think a 4:45 HS runner is not a talented runner?

Obviously, there is a magnitude of talent.

Is a 4:25 runner talented when compared to a 4:10 runner?

How fast does a HS runner need to be to make the "talent" cut-off?

At what point does the "he/she need to be able to run under XX time for YY distance to run under 4:30" argument stop? Should a person be able to run 26 seconds for a 200 in order to break 4:30? How about 12.5 seconds for a 100? We can take it to the extreme and say that a person should have to be able to run one step in a certain time in order to break 4:30.

I think the reason why more kids don't break 4:40-4:30 is bad coaching, late blooming and attitude. I don't buy the genetic ceiling argument. It takes a long time to reach peak aerobic and anaerobic potential. The outdoor world records from the 800 on up were set by athletes who were in their 20s. Why wouldn't the 4:40 high school athletes reach their full potential at that age as well?

FriarBob wrote:

I think the reason why more kids don't break 4:40-4:30 is bad coaching, late blooming and attitude. I don't buy the genetic ceiling argument. It takes a long time to reach peak aerobic and anaerobic potential. The outdoor world records from the 800 on up were set by athletes who were in their 20s. Why wouldn't the 4:40 high school athletes reach their full potential at that age as well?

There is a broad continuum of talent.

I watched German Fernandez run 4:34 after 3 weeks of training as a high school freshman (he ran in our league during high school). He had not run cross country that season. I think we can agree that he is on one extreme end of the talent spectrum. I've had other kids bust their butts for 4 years and not be able to break 5:20.

You are right that it does take a long time to reach peak aerobic potential, but high schoolers have only 4 years to do so.

It is difficult for a high schooler (and coach) to constantly adjust training volume, intensity, rest, stretching, nutrition, core, and strength training. My guess is that most high school coaches follow some sort of training template and that those templates are good enough to get a high school kid of slightly above average ability to run a mile somewhere in the mid 4:40 range. Many kids plateau in high school, then quit. Many plateau then continue their running somewhere else and manage to figure out how to adjust all of the above mentioned variables into a plan that works well for them.

CoachB wrote:

All of the Above + Culture

The high 4 minute range is where talent, work ethic, and coaching all start to intersect.

A good coach can take a motivated kid of average talent into the 4:40s pretty easily.

A talented kid with poor work ethic can make it into the mid 4:40s pretty easily

A talented kid with a bad coach can make it into the 4:40's pretty easily.

To progress beyond the 4:40s, you need to have two of the three factors working for you. To be a really good high schooler, say sub 4:20, you need all 3 factors working for you.

...

I think is getting much closer to the truth. Another thing when you think about "culture" is that kids rarely are going to do this stuff completely solo. They need other kids/people to train with. If you have a kid crushing everyone going 70sec per 400 in workouts, he is bound to be a marginally sub-5 guy; toss in a couple guys on his heels, and he might turn out to be a sub 4:40 kid.

How many high school kids are going to go out and do runs consistently on their own in the winter or summer? Some of my best high school memories are from being out running with my other buddies during the off-season. Yeah, we goofed around a fair amount, but mostly we were pushing ourselves because our coach (quite deftly) had created a culture for us to keep pushing ourselves through the off-season.

I remember my FR year (before the better coach) our runs were 8ish minute pace consistently for our main group, then by my senior year our runs were more 7ish minute pace for the main group. Guess what? The culture changed from being "finish up toward the front if you can" to you have to be sub 2:00 or sub 4:30 if you want to be "legit". 3 out of the next 6 years we were regional champions too.

OP signing in from school PC, so happy that one of my threads finally made it onto the "front page," if you will :D:D

Anyways I messaged some of the guys on facebook and also asked my coach, and they all said it was due to HW, activities outside of school, SAT prep classes etc, especially in the junior and senior years.

Talent certainly plays a part in what time they'll be able to reach but it's sad that most HS runners will never be able to fully show off their potential, due to our increasing-competitive studying environment.

......... wrote:

webfoot wrote:

Agree with this. To get to 4:10-4:20 range you need to be able to run under 54 and 2:00.

As a senior in HS I was about 52-53 (400), 1:56 (800) and 3:52 (1500). As a soph I was 55+ (400), 2:04 (800) and 4:11 (1500).

You just contradicted yourself.

How so? Are you saying a 52 400 is too slow and I should not have been able to run 3:52/4:10 in HS?

Having wheels is relative. Most of these milers stuck at 4:40 who *are* putting in mileage are stuck because they can't run much below 60 for 400. Running a fast mile requires good economy at that pace, you can't run a fast mile near your 400 PR pace.

It's called genetics.... Limitations

by 4:10-4:20 range, you meant that time for a mile, not 1500m, which you ran in that range when you could run only 54, so you didn't think you'd contradicted yourself but the commenter did.

I think the talent that the boys are running against in high school has something to do with how fast they will run. If the competition is not that fierce, maybe a 4:45 will place but not in a more competitive league. My son competed in Sean McGorty's district and believe me, his entire team trained hard to be even slightly competitive against him!