Lydiard's 28 week training

A number of our kids got a minute this year from week 1 of our taper to week 2 (some is the course, a lot is them). If you have 2 weeks between races and qualify, there are things you can do with that as well.

michaelchamp2112 wrote:

Thanks a lot for that. I agree that would be too much intensity. Tempo run, fartlek, and a race with 4 days aerobic falls pretty well with Lydiard's sharpening phase. My long runs are anywhere from 8.5- 10 miles. If I peak at 45 miles a week during track. Is starting the base phase at 45 miles a week too much?

I'd give yourself a couple of lower weeks first... build back to 45 over a few weeks. 25-35-45???

Then I might do those sharpeners on the Tuesdays when I do a medium fartlek. Or I might not do them since I have fartlek, tempo, and race. I will just see how it goes and if I ever have a weekday race or something. The sharpening phase makes a lot of sense to me now. thanks

We do like a 25 minute hill workout. Different types though. One time just up and down for 22 minutes. Another a weird route going up and down different size hills. Sometimes up and down every 1 minute. After we do lunges up the hill, also we do skips up the hill after the workout. Sometimes we do cycles as well.

After my track season ends, I am doing 2 weeks of jogging 38-40 miles a week. In those 12 weeks, I want to build to 52 miles a week by the last couple weeks hopefully. Do you think you could give me a mileage progression throughout those 12 weeks. Let me give it a try and tell me what you think.

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michaelchamp2112 wrote:

After my track season ends, I am doing 2 weeks of jogging 38-40 miles a week. In those 12 weeks, I want to build to 52 miles a week by the last couple weeks hopefully. Do you think you could give me a mileage progression throughout those 12 weeks. Let me give it a try and tell me what you think.

Very gradual. Should be fine. Some teams will build up faster, using their first 4 weeks to reach full volume, then maintaining that as weeks go on; others will build more slowly. Find which way works best for you.

I'm not following every detail of what "north coast" is saying, but what I saw I would pretty much echo.

I can't help but feel you're to eager to squeeze in too many workouts.

If you are like most 15 year olds, the best investment for you is the aerobic training, and increasing your mileage.

I always feel that for high school, a good "typical" goal is going from 40 mpw to 70-75 mpw by Junior/Senior year.

You confuse me with the hills -- in one description you suggest incorporating hill training for 11 weeks -- that sounds like too much.

I found a schedule for you, where:

- Hills are only 1x/week for 4 weeks.

- With the shortened phases, and the last "continuation of racing phase", you can play around with when you think the real "first" important race is. For example, you have to chose if the early season races are "development" races, or an "important race". In other words, in your case, you need to decide if "as long as possible" is 7 weeks or 14 weeks. (I would advise 14 weeks).

- Note that some workouts (e.g. things like "Leg speed, 6x100m") should also be supplemented with easy aerobic running (you decide how long you can handle).

- In fact, you always add easy aerobic mileage to days how you feel, but don't double-up workouts, or attempt to add anything else but "easy" mileage.

Here is a schedule from Lydiard's 1978 book for Cross-Country training for Boys 14-15:

As long as possible:

Monday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 to 3/4 hour

Tuesday: Long aerobic running, 3/4 to 1 hour

Wednesday: Time trials, 5000m

Thursday: Repeat Tuesday

Friday: Leg Speed, 6x100m

Saturday: Time trials, 3000m

Sunday: Long aerobic running, 1 hour or more

4 weeks:

Monday: Hill springing, steep hills or step running, 1/2 to 3/4 hour

Tuesday: Long aerobic running, 3/4 to 1 hour

Wednesday: Time trials, 3000m

Thursday: Repetitions, 6-8x200m

Friday: Leg Speed, 6x100m

Saturday: Time trials, 3000m

Sunday: Long aerobic running, 1 hour or more

4 weeks:

Monday: 6-8x100m wind sprints (one every 200m)

Tuesday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 to 3/4 hour

Wednesday: Time trials, 3000m

Thursday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 hour

Friday: Relaxed striding, 4x200m

Saturday: Development races

Sunday: Long aerobic running, 3/4 hour or more

1 week:

Monday: 10-12x45m wind sprints (one every 100m)

Tuesday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 hour

Wednesday: Time trials, 1000m

Thursday: Repeat Tuesday

Friday: Jogging, 1/2 hour

Saturday: Race 3000m

Sunday: Jogging, 1/4 hour

1 week:

Monday: 8-10x45m wind sprints (one every 100m)

Tuesday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 hour

Wednesday: Time trials, 1000m

Thursday: Repeat Tuesday

Friday: Relaxed striding, 3x200m

Saturday: Race 2000m

Sunday: Jogging, 3/4 hour

1 week:

Monday: 8x45m wind sprints (one every 100m)

Tuesday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 hour

Wednesday: Time trials, 800m

Thursday: Jogging, 1/2 hour

Friday: Jogging, 1/2 hour or rest

Saturday: First important race

Sunday: Jogging 3/4 hour or more

Continuation of racing:

Monday: 8-10x45m wind sprints (one every 100m)

Tuesday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 to 3/4 hour

Wednesday: Time trials, 1000m

Thursday: Easy fartlek running, 1/2 hour

Friday: Jogging, 1/2 hour

Saturday: Race

Sunday: Jogging, 3/4 hour or more

rekrunner... Experientially, I've always found that Arthur's 5k schedules worked better for my XC kids than the cross country cycles did, so filter what I'm saying through that. The XC schedule left my kids flat; the 5k schedule - which we've found very adaptable - has given us some good years.

Thanks you have been very helpful. I just thought time trials only come during sharpening phase. I will use my races as these. I am only doing 6 weeks of twice a week hills. I realized that during sharpening phase, I will just do what my coach has with race and a long run. The race, Fartlek, and tempo run should be enough sharpening. If I don't do one of these workouts then I will substitute some sort of 100/100 workout. I will add aerobic running to meet my mileage goals

OK, fair enough -- my point was more to downplay the hill training for a 15 year old for cross country: 1x4 weeks versus 3x11 weeks; to show the relative importance of "anaerobic" training in a cross country schedule; and to show how you could play with the the lengths of the different phases, and still continue your peak with racing.I will admit I'm surprised you say it left your kids flat, since it doesn't seem that intense, but I don't doubt your experience. I never actually followed any of the schedules in any of the books or websites, but developed my own based more on the principles I've learned and experienced, often subject to limited timing, taking experience into account. I've always felt that schedules were subject to changes, depending on real world experiences.

north coast wrote:

rekrunner... Experientially, I've always found that Arthur's 5k schedules worked better for my XC kids than the cross country cycles did, so filter what I'm saying through that. The XC schedule left my kids flat; the 5k schedule - which we've found very adaptable - has given us some good years.

Be careful, because (unfortunately) "time trial" can mean two things. During the general "aerobic conditioning" phase, these should be closer to "tempo" workouts, and should not be raced. But later, during the "sharpening" (or "coordination") phase, these "time trials" are sometimes called practice, or development races. They are controlled races at near maximum effort.In a Lydiard context, these later time trials (practice races) are actually quite important for identifying weaknesses. If your performances are strong, but lack speed, then your "coordination" training should be adapted to develop a little more speed, e.g. with under distance time trials, or well planned interval training. If your performances are fast, but you lack the stamina to finish the race fast, then you should adapt the training to improve your endurance, e.g. with some overdistance time trials.

Michaelchamp2112 wrote:

Thanks you have been very helpful. I just thought time trials only come during sharpening phase. I will use my races as these. I am only doing 6 weeks of twice a week hills. I realized that during sharpening phase, I will just do what my coach has with race and a long run. The race, Fartlek, and tempo run should be enough sharpening. If I don't do one of these workouts then I will substitute some sort of 100/100 workout. I will add aerobic running to meet my mileage goals

I thought during base phase, the only thing you do is run aerobic miles. The only workouts were easy fartlek and steady state and long run.

As for the sharpening, can I use my Saturday races as my time trials and depending on how I felt I did that day, I can use that to determine what workout I need to do next? If I can use that, please give example on what type of workout to do if I am lacking endurance or if I am lacking speed. One more thing, If I do the time trial, I run it at a pretty fast pace, but not all out at even pace. How do I reflect on it and decide what im lacking?

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

I've always felt that schedules were subject to changes, depending on real world experiences.

[quote]north coast wrote:

Absolutely. That's the greatest strength of the Lydiard program. The whole idea of the coordination phase has always appealed to me - test, see where the weaknesses are, then structure the training to best suit the individual and the circumstances.

[quote]michaelchamp2112 wrote:

"I thought during base phase, the only thing you do is run aerobic miles. The only workouts were easy fartlek and steady state and long run."

That depends on how you define aerobic. Arthur certainly didn't mean jogging. His guys did a weekly 10 miler at a pretty quick pace during base. Those 'trials' rekrunner cites in the base are tempo work ("3/4th's effort"), and are in Arthur's 1978 book. They are a staple of what we do, but they aren't races (your PR's say maybe 6:40 pace, for example). Not death, but not a jog, either.

As for the sharpening, can I use my Saturday races as my time trials and depending on how I felt I did that day, I can use that to determine what workout I need to do next?

YES!

"If I can use that, please give example on what type of workout to do if I am lacking endurance or if I am lacking speed."

Some grossly simple examples: Trouble getting out? Might need more shorter speed (200's, or 400's) mixed in. Trouble with your 2nd mile (the usual thing for a kid your age)? Sometimes it's pace judgement (we'll use varied length intervals at pace), sometimes it's aerobic strength (tempo, longer intervals), sometimes the athlete is just tired and needs some easy aerobic work. That's the art - there could be a bunch of different reasons, and communication is everything.

"One more thing, If I do the time trial, I run it at a pretty fast pace, but not all out at even pace. How do I reflect on it and decide what im lacking?"

Look at your splits. Cross country can be a little hard to determine (weather can really change things) but if you have a course you know and run frequently, a quick look at a mile-2 mile split vs. your average mile for the race can tell you a lot. So can a place for that matter - 10th at the mile and 20th at the end says a lot.

Is everyone besides me a sockpuppet on this thread? "north coast" = "wet coast" etc....I mean, come on guys, I know you want more Lydiard threads but for the love of God, there's enough already...

Well yes and no. Aerobic training isn't that exclusive or limiting. Actually a variety of paces and terrains is highly encouraged. In a Lydiard context, during the aerobic phase, you should only avoid "anaerobic" training. This is not exactly saying the same thing. For Lydiard, "anaerobic" isn't so much a forbidden boundary of pace or intensity, as an overall training effect. A workout is "anaerobic" when it results in a high level of lactate accumulation in the arteries. This is typically achieved with a high volume of repetitions at high intensity, with long recoveries (double time, or equal distance, or longer) so that you are "fresh" for each one.In the example I gave, there is nothing with that kind of volume of intensity. As I said, the 5000m and 3000m "time trials" should not be raced, but are workouts more like tempos. Neither is the "Leg speed, 6x100m". While the intensity is high, 100m is not long enough, and the number of reps is not very high, to be considered an interesting "anaerobic" workout. In any case, even 5K and 3K pace are highly aerobic, and won't result in the kind of accumulation you can achieve with something like 6x800m interval training, with full recoveries.Yes, you should use the Saturday races as development races. If you feel great, and seem like you should go faster, but just can't seem to, then you should change a couple workouts to work on speed. This could be a shorter distance time trial (e.g. 3000m), or interval training (e.g. 10x400 with short recoveries, like 45-60s). If you have trouble maintaining endurance, then over-distance races, like 5 miles or 10K should help. I'm not sure what your last question is, unless it's something about pace judgement.

michaelchamp2112 wrote:

I thought during base phase, the only thing you do is run aerobic miles. The only workouts were easy fartlek and steady state and long run.

As for the sharpening, can I use my Saturday races as my time trials and depending on how I felt I did that day, I can use that to determine what workout I need to do next? If I can use that, please give example on what type of workout to do if I am lacking endurance or if I am lacking speed. One more thing, If I do the time trial, I run it at a pretty fast pace, but not all out at even pace. How do I reflect on it and decide what im lacking?

Speaking for myself, no. Maybe I was trolled.

itsnojokeyo wrote:

Is everyone besides me a sockpuppet on this thread? "north coast" = "wet coast" etc....I mean, come on guys, I know you want more Lydiard threads but for the love of God, there's enough already...

itsnojokeyo wrote:

Is everyone besides me a sockpuppet on this thread? "north coast" = "wet coast" etc....I mean, come on guys, I know you want more Lydiard threads but for the love of God, there's enough already...

My sophomores have called me some interesting names in the past, but sockpuppet is a new one. Just a high school coach answering a high school kid's question. Thought I could help.

Thanks man, you all helped a lot! I think I know everything I need to know. I just gotta pay attention to the coordination and sharpening phase.