blood dopers were cleaning up in the 70s and 80s with transfusions
double doubles...double.. triples you name it
cova,viren and a load of em
now along comes epo at the end of the 80s
and the xc skiers and cyclists ditch the blood bags and start wiping the floor with the opposition
now what are we supposed to think happened around 1992 when epo went mainstream and records started tumbling on the track...
blood dopers were cleaning up in the 70s and 80s with transfusions
double doubles...double.. triples you name it
cova,viren and a load of em
now along comes epo at the end of the 80s
and the xc skiers and cyclists ditch the blood bags and start wiping the floor with the opposition
now what are we supposed to think happened around 1992 when epo went mainstream and records started tumbling on the track...
"THE BEST KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN IN LONG DISTANCES ARE ALL CLEAN"
Bravo Canova! The seer of all, the knower of everything.
I guess you really don't know how stupid you sound--or, you don't care.
Keep masturbating your fantasies, this is great theater.
More, please!
You are a regular Giuliano Mignini.
Point blank: Your act is una farsa.
canovas a successful coach...respect for that
his theory that epo doesn't work for top clean africans
is hard to buy
my suspicion is that the GOATS on the track benefitted in exactly the same way as the goats of xc skiing and cycling benefitted and i would put the top clean africans some way back
...although its true that we know less about epo and track
and now he has a new theory that blood tranfusions were of little use or actually made performances WORSEN
podium places and gold medals and world records have gone hand-in hand with doping for the last 40 yrs...that's the reality
who's usually winning
the top CLEAN guys or the guys on the program??
it's the guys on the program!!
RENATO NEXT YOU WILL BE TELLING ME BOLT
AND THE JAMICANS ARE CLEAN .
you have to telling porkies or have some agenda here
nobody can be that stupid !!!!
and simply cant ignore the facts on various aerobic enhancents .
objective through and thru .
wasnt going to spell it out but will ,
blood doping can make performances worse or even end career
but that is a risk like many things ,although minor .
blood poisoning ,viruses ,stroke , so on
but cannot despute fact that extra red bllod cells
and higher hct will enhance performance of the human
organism during aerobic activity regardless of elite bracket.
this is fact ,no fiction .
and epo will offer more of enhancemnet than tranfusions
for other reasons that been discussed many times before.
YOU SIMPLY ARE TRYING TO CREATE THIS MYTH AROUND YOU
ATHLETES , THAT SUPER HUMAN ... no agenda here ....
WHEN ANY RATIONAL PERSON KNOWES EXACTLY WHATS GOING ON .
logical person will put many facts together ,
starting with your history , posts , constant reverse
physcological prose on doping , ITALIAN ,
italian , etc all adds up to someone that promotes
doping whether directly or choses to ignore it
and athletes know this and follow suit .
wind up merchant simples ,
oh epo doesnt happen naturally in body and increase
due to aerobic training ,
like many other enhanced facets ,enzymatic pathways ,energy consumption, oxygen utilisation ,
but all within normal parameters ,not supra physilogical
that epo offers and more to point epo and specific
training .
vo2 cycling wrote:
now what are we supposed to think happened around 1992 when epo went mainstream and records started tumbling on the track...
Records didn't "start tumbling on the track" in or around 1992...
THE BEST KENYAN AND ETHIOPIAN IN LONG DISTANCES ARE ALL CLEAN"
i think this statement sums it all up for you RENATO ,
like the best of dopers , absolute two faced
lie and deny till the end , no matter what .
know protocal ,ask lance , all about protecting
ones legacy ,be it trainer, athlete ,physican .
Records didn't "start tumbling on the track" in or around 1992...
they sure did buddy...recheck your facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_10000_metres_men
1965-1991 32 second drop...that's 26 years
1993-1996 30 second drop...in 3 short years
coincidentally around the same time european doctors and agents(some of whom were involved in doping in cycling prior to that) introduced east africans to epo!
let me also introduce you to the 10000m speed skating world record
notice the striking similarity to the 10000m track world record progression!
huge drops in times beginning in the early nineties and tailing off around 2007
vo2 cycling wrote:
Records didn't "start tumbling on the track" in or around 1992...
they sure did buddy...recheck your facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_10000_metres_men1965-1991 32 second drop...that's 26 years
1993-1996 30 second drop...in 3 short years
Blatant cherry-picking of numbers.
From 1962 to 1965 A SINGLE MAN dropped the record by 29 seconds.
Meanwhile from your same era of 1993-1996 the marathon world record DID NOT CHANGE! Does EPO not work for the marathon?
You don't understand the history of the sport, nor do you understand how random variables work. Outliers in data are completely normal, and do not need external explanation. They will not follow a nice pattern where the world record gets broken exactly every 5 years by exactly 10 seconds. I hope you don't ever hope to become a stock trader.
Hardloper wrote:
Blatant cherry-picking
Who's cherry picking?
track was where it was at in 1990's
and epo ,higher hct , better for shorter distance events
with ENDURANCE AT SPEED .
see that with 400m .
now gw501516 is different animal ,better for marathon
burn more fat etc ,
but cant use anymore .
whatever team sky are doing
that's prob where it's at right now
considering the transformation with Chris froome from also ran to supreme climber and TT
Renato Canova wrote:
d) Athlete of MEDIUM INTERNATIONAL LEVEL (a lot of people give the example of Lombard). They can run 28'30", taking EPO run 27'30" (increase of about 3,5 %)
Lombard was at the level of 29'30" to 30'. Then he made a rapid improvement in his late 20's over about 18 months to 27'30" and tested positive for EPO after this.
Hardloper wrote:
vo2 cycling wrote:Records didn't "start tumbling on the track" in or around 1992...
they sure did buddy...recheck your facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_10000_metres_men1965-1991 32 second drop...that's 26 years
1993-1996 30 second drop...in 3 short years
Blatant cherry-picking of numbers.
From 1962 to 1965 A SINGLE MAN dropped the record by 29 seconds.
Meanwhile from your same era of 1993-1996 the marathon world record DID NOT CHANGE! Does EPO not work for the marathon?
You don't understand the history of the sport, nor do you understand how random variables work. Outliers in data are completely normal, and do not need external explanation. They will not follow a nice pattern where the world record gets broken exactly every 5 years by exactly 10 seconds. I hope you don't ever hope to become a stock trader.
Vo2 Cycling is absolutely right. There is no cherry picking going on here at all!
In EVERY Men's track event from 1500m to 10000m, the average amount of improvement in terms of time (not even percentage) was greater in a 7 year period between the beginning of 1992 to 1999, than it had been in a 25 year period from 1967 to 1992.
This cannot be 'merely' an anomaly when it is across the board in all endurance events.
There has not been great advances in terms of training techniques or physiological understanding of the body since 1992. There were much greater advances in training, shoes and tracks between 1967 and 1992, and subsequently the advances during this era should have been far greater than a 7 year period in the 90's. In fact, the rate of progression in the improvement of athletic world records should surely decline over time!? With the passing of time the margin of improving should get smaller in all events.
In athletics, cycling and speed skating this was not the case in the mid to late 90s.
Here are the comparisons between the advances made for each event within a 25 year period and a 7 year period: -
1500m: - 1967 - 1992 - dropped by 3.6sec
1992 - 1999 - dropped by 3.4sec
1 Mile: - 1967 - 1992 - dropped by 4.8 sec
1992 - 1999 - dropped by 3.2 sec
2000m: - 1967 - 1992 - dropped by 5.4 sec
1992 - 1999 - dropped by 6.0 sec
3000m: - 1967 - 1992 - dropped by 10.1 sec
1992 - 1999 - dropped by 8.8 sec
5000m: - 1967 - 1992 - dropped by 18.2 sec
1992 - 1999 - dropped by 19.0 sec
10000m: - 1967 - 1992 - dropped by 31.2 sec
1992 - 1999 - dropped by 45.5 sec.
That's an average improvement of 12.2 secs per event in the 25 years from 1967 to 1992.
But in the 7 years from 1992 to 1999, the average improvement per event was greater at 14.3 secs. I'm sure a % improvement would be far more accurate and interesting, but this method serves its purpose in highlighting that this progression is far from normal.
One also has to take into consideration that some of the improvements in the 25 year period of 1967 to 1992 would have been down to changes from cinder to synthetic tracks.
There will always be the occasional outlier, but the odds that they all popped up in a 7 year period in the 90's in 6 different events, are incredibly rare.
When one then considers that the period of "outliers" also just so happens to coincide with a period when EPO emerged and there was no test for it, only reinforces the fact that the trend in the progression of these events over the past 40 + years is far from natural.
Anyone who cannot see that this is an unnatural rate of progression is naive.
Wow correlation doesn't equal causation. You didn't bother to factor in the African influx and growth in the late 80s and 90s and the fact Americans and Europeans were also not producing the same quality and quantity of athlete in the early 90s as in much of the 80s.
Go Geb wrote:
Wow correlation doesn't equal causation. You didn't bother to factor in the African influx and growth in the late 80s and 90s and the fact Americans and Europeans were also not producing the same quality and quantity of athlete in the early 90s as in much of the 80s.
There were many great Africans running internationally before 1992; Keino, Boit, Yifter, Rono, Bayi, ....
It was only in the early 90's that so many of them started to have European coaches and agents, many previously from cycling.
Deanouk wrote:
There were many great Africans running internationally before 1992; Keino, Boit, Yifter, Rono, Bayi, ....
No there weren't. There were very, very few relative to today. And yet the ones who did run were very good. So when you multiply that depth by 100, what do you expect to happen?
When I get home I will go through the rest of your stats.
Deanouk wrote:
"Anyone who cannot see that this is an unnatural rate of progression is naive."
That's compelling evidence. Although, I did not verify the data. It does support your argument.